Bosch to the left of them, Bosch to the right....

[indalo]

It seems the now ubiquitous Bosch-driven machines can be found in an ever-increasing number of UK outlets and the breadth of competition is reflected in some challenging price ticketing.

Some of you may have spotted it before me and if reported here, I missed it but James at Justebikes who deals in several high-end makes, now has a Sparta model in his line-up equipped with a Bosch motor. Curiously, in the case of this particular model, it is specified as having 40Nm of torque compared to the 50Nm of the Haibike range.

With a price tag of under 2K, I think it represents decent value for the Sparta pedigree with the Bosch system reliability, (reportedly!) Now, I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I can't remember Sparta using crank-drive previously as the four models I have test-ridden since 2008 were all hub-driven machines.

Panasonic must be feeling some pain at the rapidity with which Bosch has stolen their market and it will be interesting if they can produce something in reply that fires the imagination in the way the Bosch motor has, especially when one of their big users, Kalkhoff has decided to introduce its own Impulse Drive version.

Wouldn't you think Sugar, Branson, Dyson and their ilk have enough cash and expertise between them to re-launch a British bicycle industry and produce bikes as good as or better than the expensive stuff we have to import from abroad? Our labour costs are less than in Germany, I believe.

It's such a shame we let our engineering industry go as we can still match the best in the world in the automotive field yet have needed foreign investors to keep alive our great carmaking companies.

This is beginning to seem like a rant so I'll shut up now. A big thanks to Eddieo though for continually harping on about the Bosch bikes from the time the system was first launched. You weren't wrong Ed!

Indalo

 

[amigafan2003]

Wouldn't you think Sugar, Branson, Dyson and their ilk have enough cash and expertise between them to re-launch a British bicycle industry and produce bikes as good as or better than the expensive stuff we have to import from abroad? Our labour costs are less than in Germany, I believe.

They may have the cash and expertise but where is the market? No one in the UK really care about cycling, apart from an enlightened minority.

Cycling is still seen as a poor mans transport and until that changes (and the infrstructure), sales of any kind of bike, let alone ebikes, will pale in comparison to the continent.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Indalo,there are several obstacles to producing a Bosch equipped bike in the UK-
1. Bosch are reluctant to sell these motors to builders outside of Germany for they would then lose control of the pricing structure.
2. There is little left of the british bike industry,but this could be overcome.
3. We don't have the big volume market in the UK to build such a business upon and the Germans are canny to protect their own home market from British competition-the strength of the pound makes it difficult to sell into euro countries at present.
4. In reverse the weakness of the euro is making German built bikes more competitive in the UK.
5. We are very price driven in the UK,most (not all)don't want to pay more than about £1k for an e-bike,if we built Bosch equipped bikes here they would still be over £1500....In Germany there is a big market for more expensive e-bikes.
There are motors being developed in Asia that have the potential to be the equal of Bosch equipped bikes but the development is taking longer than is ideal but it did take Bosch a long time to get their motor right.
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[eddieo]

Now that to some extent supply catching up with demand,some good deals on End of season 2012 Bosch powered bikes in Germany . There are still bikes for not more then a grand or more about.....

British manufacturing ......give it all away...we then flounder while others prosper and sell it all back to us. yes more systems on the way and even a Bosch Mrk2. But the best will still be European for the foreseeable future.....

 

[indalo]

there are several obstacles to producing a Bosch equipped bike in the UK-

Not for a moment did I suggest we build Bosch bikes here David. Perhaps I didn't make myself understood properly but I can't see why we in Britain cannot produce, from scratch, an electric bike capable of competing with the best out there.

Most of the points you raise are applicable to all British companies producing anything for export but it hasn't stopped everyone from doing so. You mention that there is a big market in Germany for more expensive bikes but that doesn't stop Germans from buying bikes from elsewhere and they do. Many in Germany appreciate the traditional British luxury saloon cars and our RR 4x4 machines to their own brands, if only to be different from everyone else who has money, so they are not so protective of their own industry that they refuse to buy foreign.

As regards exchange rates, we have always lost out through remaining outside the euro as there is a cost factor in every single transaction which works against our ability to compete. Every UK citizen who purchases euros for the annual holiday pays for the privilege but each of us is perfectly happy to use that currency, just as we were happy to use the previous currency of whichever european country we visited. Successive British governments failed to grasp the nettle and some silly jingoistic newspapers have campaigned for us to save the pound. I can't think of any good reason to save the pound and even today, after all the financial troubles abroad, I still believe we'd be better off using euros whether we're in the EU or out of it.

Indalo

 

[flecc]

As regards exchange rates, we have always lost out through remaining outside the euro as there is a cost factor in every single transaction which works against our ability to compete. Every UK citizen who purchases euros for the annual holiday pays for the privilege but each of us is perfectly happy to use that currency, just as we were happy to use the previous currency of whichever european country we visited. Successive British governments failed to grasp the nettle and some silly jingoistic newspapers have campaigned for us to save the pound. I can't think of any good reason to save the pound and even today, after all the financial troubles abroad, I still believe we'd be better off using euros whether we're in the EU or out of it.

Indalo

Indeed, we should have joined the euro and added to it's strength, that would have shielded it from much of the speculative and vindictively motivated attack of financiers and bankers which has so often damaged it. They hate single currencies since they reduce their opportunities to manipulate a larger number of them against each other for their gain and our loss. We and Sweden should join now to send the message to them that they'd lost, the euro is here to stay, final.

Re: your earlier point, Panasonic have answered the Bosch unit with their 36 volt version which from all accounts is much more of a direct competitor. However, the damage is done. European manufacturers are unlikely to prefer it now and the Chinese are catching up meanwhile.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Indalo,
Sorry I didn't realise you wanted to build a bike from scratch. To develop the motor would be a massive investment and where would we see a market to repay that investment-the bike would have to be 'high end' price point,we could not hope to compete with the chinese at the low-mid range price point. I suspect that the market for a 'Bentley e-bike' would be maximum 1000 units. To sell into Europe,the bike would have to have some special cache and the chinese would prefer to buy a car,bicycles are still for the poor in Asia.
The best we can currently hope for is to be an assembler in the UK,perhaps built frames from Asia and then bolt in some Euro motor kit-AEG or Bosch. But by the time all that is put together,one of the asian motor manufacturers will get it right and our price structure will be uncompetitive.
If you look on my auto parts website there are literally hundreds of products in those ranges which I did try to cost out in the UK but the tooling costs are a killer. The asians often amortize the tooling into the job if you give them big volumes,no UK manufacturer has the money or confidence to offer that-I know that the tooling cost on a quality e-bike motor will be considerable.
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[Blew it]

All that glitters

For several months now, I have been alternating between a 26v Panasonic powered machine and a 36v Bosch powered Haibike. In my opinion, the 26v Panasonic drive is far from down-and-out. I make this comparison, not as the result of a quick test ride, but actually covering hundreds of miles on both machines.

Just this morning, I've filmed an eight mile route riding the Kalkhoff Sahel Pro Disc, powered by the 26v Panasonic system....and it was an absolute pleasure after riding the rather stodgy Bosch system. My personal view is, Bosch have restricted the available torque to a much lower level than Panasonic considered necessary to preserve the bicycle's transmission. The moderate hills I encounter on my regular routes are climbed faster by the Panasonic... a clear indication of higher torque being available.

To confirm my suspicions, I 'borrowed' two other Bosch powered machines, just in case mine was in some way faulty. As it turned out, one of those machines was even less powerful than my own.

Not for one moment am I saying the Bosch system isn't good, It's quiet, smooth and frugal with watt-hours, as is the Panasonic system. What I am saying, is the Panasonic system is not dead-in-the-water as so many inexperienced folks are suggesting.

Hat-doff to the German engineers for doing a good job of copying it.

 

[flecc]

Thanks Blew it, it's good to hear that. I haven't tried a Bosch motor e-bike but have been suspicious about the reports of the combination of claimed high power and range from their battery which is only just over 10% larger capacity than the 26/10 Panasonic one. On many occasions it wasn't adding up.

I too am a fan of the way the 26 volt Panasonic system operates and wouldn't like to see it disappear from our market. They are up against quite a Bosch bandwagon now though, and introducing the 36 volt version is almost like conceding a point to Bosch.

 

[eddieo]

nothings perfect, but at least the Bosch does not impose cadesence on you and tell you how to ride......plus the power there immediately when you press on pedal. its not only that, a normal wheelbase and more up to date, LIGHT, stylish bike the main selling point as well....Has transformed European e bike market where the pana has always been looked upon as a granny bike.

Uptake by manufacturers tells the real story I think. its more comparable with the 36 volt Panasonic which is much more Bosch like and real competition..But for the price.

anyway 11 Ah battery here now for those who need it, not many I would think...anyway the Bosch system has opened up a whole new market of younger and sports riders to e bikes....

 

[flecc]

The Panasonic unit has maximum power available at a press on the pedal from a standstill Eddie, one of it's strongest points. This has always been true, even on the original unit from 2001 on. The more recent units don't impose low cadences as much as they used to either.

I think the Bosch uptake is as much due to it being an EU product as anything else.

 

[eddieo]

The Panasonic unit has maximum power available at a press on the pedal from a standstill Eddie, one of it's strongest points. This has always been true, even on the original unit from 2001 on. The more recent units don't impose low cadences as much as they used to either.

I think the Bosch uptake is as much due to it being an EU product as anything else.

impulse dont....must make hill starts interesting.

anyway have never appealed, to old fashioned, and funny enough to German/Dutch looking

 

[flecc]

But the Impulse isn't Panasonic as you know Eddie, another German one being ex Daum.

Old Fashioned? I guess you mean the integrated rear of seatpost battery which I know you don't like. Personally I prefer it, battery out of the way and low down.

I do like the Bosch method of driving through the chainwheel though, despite it being marginally less efficient due to the internal gear train. Makes the transmission line simpler.

 

[indalo]

it was an absolute pleasure after riding the rather stodgy Bosch system.

I can't speak for others Blew it but I have never thought of the Bosch-powered bikes as "stodgy" to ride. On the contrary, I found the Haibike fairly lively to ride and while I am a fan, I did report some months ago that although I found the Haibike good, it wasn't so much better than the heavier Spartas and Kogas with their uprated power that I'd refer to it as outstanding.

What I am saying, is the Panasonic system is not dead-in-the-water as so many inexperienced folks are suggesting.

That's a new one on me as I have never heard anyone suggest that the Panasonic system is dead in the water. Certainly, Panasonic have some serious competition now with crank-driven bikes but I still love my old bike with its Panasonic drive. There can be no doubt though that Panasonic haven't shifted as many units over the last year or so as they might have done had not Bosch entered the market.

However, as I stated previously, it will be interesting to see if they can respond and while Flecc has observed, Panasonic have been prompted to introduce a 36V system probably as a direct response to Bosch, the number of bikes sold with Panasonic motors over the coming months will be a telling factor.

If I have one criticism of the Panasonic drive system, it's that damned extended wheelbase owing to the placement of the battery behind the seatpost. Many, (not all) of the Bosch-powered bikes have the battery on the downtube which affords a more normal wheelbase and provides a little more "chuckability" than the Panasonic bikes. Most other Bosch bikes have the battery on the rear rack which is ok, I suppose, although perhaps less pleasing on the eye.

You are very fortunate that you can indulge your passion, embracing not one, but two high-end machines in your stable and I respect your opinions about the relative merits of the various bikes you have been able to ride at length. I suspect that opinion among regular ebikers would be mixed if they were afforded the opportunity to ride the bikes you own as everyone's tastes differ. Facts and figures are quite often ignored as witnessed every time Top Gear do a comparative test of German exotica for example. Some people still go out and pay more money for another brand than the best car on test. It's great to have choice!

Indalo

 

[GORDONAL]

Totally agree Indalo
To describe the Bosch system as "stodgy" does in no way equate to my experiences , i find the system very lively in comparison to my old 26V Panasonic , which worthy as it still is does not compare.

Alan

 

[eddieo]

I dont get the stodgy quote either...But they have pulled the power back a bit from the earlier software. On mine I dont notice it to be honest from earlier bike, if anything this feels more eager. But maybe on the mountain you would going by what some Germans are saying.... up in arms about the software update that has taken the edge of performance.

one member quote: Fun => wear, no wear => no fun

have to see how Hughs derestrict goes

 

[Hugh]

I'll post about it when I get it - still awaiting post from Germany.

The 42t chainring seems to be a success though - now possible to pedal downhill at 30 mph or so,which is reasonable, and still plenty of hill-climbing capability. I haven't used the lowest gear yet.

It will be interesting to see what the cumulative effect of the derestrict and bigger chainring is on battery life......

 

[Tim]

impulse dont....must make hill starts interesting.

Err.. yes it does. I was wheelying coming up a steep underground car park ramp today.

What is the correct spelling for wheelying, by the way?

 

[flecc]

Err.. yes it does. I was wheelying coming up a steep underground car park ramp today.

What is the correct spelling for wheelying, by the way?

Since the normal form will be wheelie, I'd guess wheelieing, though a derivation from an original slang form is always questionable.

This site headline not very neatly ducks the issue with hyphenation.

 

[Tim]

For several months now, I have been alternating between a 26v Panasonic powered machine and a 36v Bosch powered Haibike. In my opinion, the 26v Panasonic drive is far from down-and-out. I make this comparison, not as the result of a quick test ride, but actually covering hundreds of miles on both machines.

You should try an Impulse bike, stronger up hill than either Bosch or Panasonic. Plus it applies power very well from a standing start now. I ended up lifting the front wheel while in the lowest gear waiting for car park gates to open this morning which was something I never managed with the 26V Panasonic system. I've mostly been riding the Agattu Alfine 11 speed.

We have a great deal on the Agattu C8 HS, £1536.50 at the moment. We've not sold an Agattu that cheap since about 2008 and since then range has doubled, assistance has increased greatly and you get nice things like Busch & Muller LED lights and Magura hydraulic brakes.

I find the Bosch 250W system a bit lacklustre, as did everyone who tried the Haibike Fs exDuro we struggled to sell in 2011, despite its fantastic looks.