Bosch Powerpack 400 losing capacity

[GLJoe]

Oh and thanks for the replies guys it's nice to have intelligent support.
.

Hold that though when you do as suggested and try to measure the voltage on a Bosch battery

Edit. I see you've discovered that the Battery needs to make communication with the control electronics before it actually provides power/voltage

 

[Nev]

Flecc posted a table yesterday that compared recoverable capacity after 1 year storage to temperature.

Does anyone know if there is a table that compares ambient temperature to battery capacity. Like the OP I have notice a decline in milage range from my battery over the last few days due to the drop in temperature.

 

[georgehenry]

I would actually recommend getting an extra battery asap to avoid the full to flat regime that you are inflicting on your battery at present and may be one of the worst ways to ensure the longevity and capacity retention of your existing expensive battery.

It sounds as if your battery almost has enough capacity for your working day but ends up pretty much empty by the end. Now it is colder the battery has not quite got enough capacity for your day without you managing the situation by turning down your power level.

This full to empty cycling is quite destructive to your battery. If you had two batteries I would recommend running the first battery down to around 40/45% remaining and then swapping over so that the second battery still has around 40/45% at the end of your working day.

You can now charge them both back to full ready for the next day. Using your batteries in this way neither one will be too empty before you can re charge them and both batteries will stay in better condition retaining their original capacity longer and as a result last an order of magnitude longer.

I copied what I wrote below from another thread "battery musings", but the health of my battery at 3 years and seven months old and the way I treat my battery may be useful to the question raised in this thread.

The 400wh battery on my sDuro Yamaha 2015 that I commute to work and back on is the original one and still performs almost as well as it did when new.

The bike has now covered 10190 miles. I charge the battery to full as close to departure as possible for my 14 mile cross country ride to work using 30% of the battery + or - about 5% dependent on route and conditions etc.

I charge back to full at work and use 35% to 40% on my 10 mile road ride home.

I always remove the battery from the bike and store it in a warm dry cupboard inside my house. I leave it in this cupboard at 60%/65% charge until I next need to charge it up to use. This will include wider time gaps when I am on holiday and could be up to three weeks before it next gets charged. Whatever the time gap I charge it back up to full as close to leaving on my next journey to work.

This regime seems to have kept my battery in really good condition. It is now three years and seven months old.

I think these batteries seem to prefer to be used regularly, not be regularly deeply discharged, stored inside the house not fully charged, and topped up to full before use.

My use as a regular commuter seems to fit well. I will be interested to see how long/far my battery will last/go.

The other thing about the way I use my bike is that when the capacity of my battery begins to noticeably reduce I should still have enough range left to complete my journey to work and back home again and this should allow me to keep using a declining battery for quite some time before having to replace it. We will see.

 

[flecc]

Does anyone know if there is a table that compares ambient temperature to battery capacity. Like the OP I have notice a decline in milage range from my battery over the last few days due to the drop in temperature.

I don't know of any table or graph for that, but can give some indication from my new Nissan Leaf's lithium battery indicated range.

From the quite hot weather in early July here in the south there's an almost 12% loss of indicated range at the recent 4 degrees C.

From the more average August/September temperatures to 4 degrees in the mornings now it's a 9% loss.

So between mid Summer warmth and a Winter zero degrees I'd expect up to 20% loss of range. That fits with Nissan's own forecasts of summer to winter range in the UK.
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[Woosh]

The DUP has no reason not to vote for the budget but the withdrawal deal is much less likely to get through parliament.
It seems that Hammond is prepping the tories for a possible GE.
Apparently, Coral are offering 4/1 on UK still a full member of the EU on 1/1/2020.

 

[chris_n]

The DUP has no reason not to vote for the budget but the withdrawal deal is much less likely to get through parliament.
It seems that Hammond is prepping the tories for a possible GE.
Apparently, Coral are offering 4/1 on UK still a full member of the EU on 1/1/2020.

??????

 

[Nev]

The DUP has no reason not to vote for the budget but the withdrawal deal is much less likely to get through parliament.
It seems that Hammond is prepping the tories for a possible GE.
Apparently, Coral are offering 4/1 on UK still a full member of the EU on 1/1/2020.

I think Woosh thought he was posting this in the Brexit thread.

 

[Gubbins]

I think Woosh thought he was posting this in the Brexit thread.

isnt everything a brexit thread in one way or another...

 

[NewtSoup]

isnt everything a brexit thread in one way or another...

Deep!

 

[asc99c]

I remember asking a similar question last year for my own Bosch battery!

Because of the dependence on your own effort it is very hard to judge battery degradation unfortunately, but certainly my range recovered over this summer, before once again dropping over the last couple of weeks.

My best estimate is I've lost about 20% of the range over the 18 months / 5000 miles I've had the bike. Further, I'd estimate a range of around 70 miles for myself on my commute, so that's only about 70 full charge cycles. Which isn't a problem for me yet, but could become one if it continues.

Sent from my Power_3 using Tapatalk

 

[Nealh]

As range decreases the battery will loose capacity measured by mah. Less mah means quicker charging to full so in general you should notice shorter charging times to fully charged. Generally charge voltage will still be about 41.5 - 42v, however in use the voltage will also decrease faster.

 

[chris_n]

I know when I was commuting unpowered my average speed would always be slower in the winter. We wear more (usually bulkier) clothing so the air doesn't flow over us as well. Couple that with cold battery performance losses and it's easy to think your battery has less capacity.

 

[zakventis]

I remember asking a similar question last year for my own Bosch battery!

My best estimate is I've lost about 20% of the range over the 18 months / 5000 miles I've had the bike. Further, I'd estimate a range of around 70 miles for myself on my commute, so that's only about 70 full charge cycles. Which isn't a problem for me yet, but could become one if it continues.

Sent from my Power_3 using Tapatalk

I can't say I have noticed any drop-off of range due to temperature (but whole bike lives in my house). My estimate is 15% loss over 18 months/6,000 miles on a Bosch 500W battery; I keep the battery fully charged, use the bike daily and do a deep discharge once a year. A full recharge takes 3.75 hours/590 watts using a 4A charger.

 

[GLJoe]

...
I always remove the battery from the bike and store it in a warm dry cupboard.. could be up to three weeks before it next gets charged

Most of what you've written is sound advice. Apart from the bit I've quoted.

Battery degradation is time and temperature dependent. The warmer you store the battery, the faster the degradation.

 

[georgehenry]

Most of what you've written is sound advice. Apart from the bit I've quoted.

Battery degradation is time and temperature dependent. The warmer you store the battery, the faster the degradation.

Hi GLJoe, yes you have picked out the contentious bit of my advise. I think I read somewhere on the internet a contradictory article about not letting your battery get too cold. I actually store mine at home in a large well ventilated walk in cupboard which also houses a floor standing boiler for my central heating, As I have said It will be interesting to see how long my battery lasts stored in this way however one battery is hardly of scientific significance and I am aware that the general consensus is to store them in a cool dry cupboard,

 

[Nealh]

Storing/keeping a battery in the cold is good as it prevents cell degradation the issue is with charging lithium is best charged under ambient room temps.
Ebikes battery needs to be inside at ambient to charge, cars have systems in place to manage battery temp charging in cold weather.

 

[MikeS]

Storing/keeping a battery in the cold is good as it prevents cell degradation the issue is with charging lithium is best charged under ambient room temps.
Ebikes battery needs to be inside at ambient to charge, cars have systems in place to manage battery temp charging in cold weather.

so what are the consequences Neal, if I continue to charge the battery on the bike in the cold garage? I can take it indoors and do it but constantly taking the battery on and off the bike probably carries its own risks?
Mike

 

[Nealh]

If the cells are too cold (esp freezing point) they will charge fully voltage wise though cells don't store the capacity as well, voltage will sag and range will suffer. Lithium can withstand cold down to -40c for storage but not for charging.
I only charge my batteries the night or day before use, other wise I leave them sitting at 37 - 38.5 v.

Removing a battery from a bike has no risk unless you drop the battery, before removing and fitting just make sure it is switched off.

Battery storage and use seem contradictory but it's the time scales involved.
Cells can stand 65 - 80c temps short term during discharge, continual high heat damages them so cool/cold is good when not in use.
Although cool/cold is good for storage it is not good for full effective capacity when charging, just because a cell reads full 4.2v it doesn't mean it has the full capacity in mah as the cold inhibits this ( something to do with chemistry interaction within between the ions and cathodes).

 

[MikeS]

so it's only really the range that's going to suffer immediately after a charge in cold temperatures. It wouldn't damage the cells so that they could not then be charged fully in a warmer room?
Mike

 

[GLJoe]

Hi GLJoe, yes you have picked out the contentious bit of my advise. I think I read somewhere on the internet a contradictory article about not letting your battery get too cold. I actually store mine at home in a large well ventilated walk in cupboard which also houses a floor standing boiler for my central heating, As I have said It will be interesting to see how long my battery lasts stored in this way however one battery is hardly of scientific significance and I am aware that the general consensus is to store them in a cool dry cupboard,

The general advice is to never CHARGE your battery when its too cold. Less than 0C is a definite no no, and they don't recommend it below 10C if you can help it.
However that's charging. Storing cold is good for the batteries. Storing hot is bad.
I certainly would be avoiding an airing cupboard type scenario!! I doubt you'll kill your battery dead, but you're bound to be shortening its life compared to keeping it in a cooler place. I think all the literature agrees with that.