Bosch made the VW emission cheating dongle.

[Artstu]

I see that Autocar car are reporting that the device VW used to cheat the emissions was made by Bosch.

The newspaper is also reporting that it has seen a letter in which VW supplier Bosch warned the VW Group in 2007 that the software was illegal for road use, and highlighting that it was only being made available for test purposes.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/reports-vw-warned-illegal-software-years-ago

 

[selrahc1992]

I see that Autocar car are reporting that the device VW used to cheat the emissions was made by Bosch.

The newspaper is also reporting that it has seen a letter in which VW supplier Bosch warned the VW Group in 2007 that the software was illegal for road use, and highlighting that it was only being made available for test purposes.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/reports-vw-warned-illegal-software-years-ago

sweeeeet (wont it be lovely if there is a global class action against Bosch for this for a few zillion zillion pounds)...curious that all the anal types who are so quick to judge those who exceed 17.8mph are stumpf about this?

 

[trex]

quite interesting comparison, selrahc1992. I wonder if WW are going to bring Bosch in as co-defendants when customers sue them for damaging their health.

 

[flecc]

The newspaper is also reporting that it has seen a letter in which VW supplier Bosch warned the VW Group in 2007 that the software was illegal for road use, and highlighting that it was only being made available for test purposes.

If true that puts Bosch in the clear and heightens VW's guilt. Inventing it isn't a crime and Bosch did not promote it's public use. VW was warned not to use it in that fashion so have no mitigating circumstances.

The USA has a simple way of dealing with this affair, avoiding extended legal trials and costs. Just ban VW from the US market for ten years. That would ensure that no other maker would ever make such a mistake again.
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[trex]

manufacturers profit margins on cars are not great, I wonder if WW will survive this crisis.

 

[selrahc1992]

If true that puts Bosch in the clear and heightens VW's guilt. Inventing it isn't a crime and Bosch did not promote it's public use. VW was warned not to use it in that fashion so have no mitigating circumstances.

The USA has a simple way of dealing with this affair, avoiding extended legal trials and costs. Just ban VW from the US market for ten years. That would ensure that no other maker would ever make such a mistake again.
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interesting, it brings to mind the legal premise in the thread about dongles around whether it makes one culpable to make stuff that can be used for illegal activity (e.g. a dongle) or whether the responsibility is only the customer's. Bosch however does not sound as if it blew the whistle publicly about something it knew was happening.

 

[anotherkiwi]

manufacturers profit margins on cars are not great, I wonder if WW will survive this crisis.

Volkswagen reported that net profit attributable to shareholders rose to €10.85 billion ($12.3 billion) last year, up from €9.15 billion in the same period a year earlier. Group revenue rose 2.8% to €202.5 billion and sales rose 4.2% to 10.14 million vehicles.

I am assuming that VW pay tax (them being a serious, law abiding, German multi-national corporation...) so the 10+ billion they have for paying back to shareholders would be after tax. Not Apple but still not peanuts.

 

[RobF]

Don't Porsche - owned by VW - make more from investments than from selling cars?

 

[flecc]

Don't Porsche - owned by VW - make more from investments than from selling cars?

Yes, and have done for many years. I think it was about six or seven years ago that Porsche investment capital resulting from stock profit growth was valued at over 4 billion euros, money that it would have taken them centuries to make from their limited market cars.
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[flecc]

interesting, it brings to mind the legal premise in the thread about dongles around whether it makes one culpable to make stuff that can be used for illegal activity (e.g. a dongle) or whether the responsibility is only the customer's. Bosch however does not sound as if it blew the whistle publicly about something it knew was happening.

In UK law and many others, one can make almost anything. Whether something that's legal to make can be used for illegal purposes is entirely irrelevant for the maker, since it's the person committing the crime who is responsible.

This is demonstrated by the fact that government does ban the manufacture and/or possession of certain things, some drugs for example, in addition to banning usage. It's even a criminal offence to hold a particular one of our wild mushrooms since the offence is possession, so just picking it up in the woods is a crime. This exception to the general rule occurs simply because control of drug usage is almost impossible due to the difficulty of detection in all circumstances.

It follows that if a government wanted to make the manufacture of illegal-speed tuning devices itself illegal, it would do so. They presumably haven't because detection of usage is entirely possible, so there's no need to extend the law to those not committing the usage offence.
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[tillson]

 

[Gubbins]

quite interesting comparison, selrahc1992. I wonder if WW are going to bring Bosch in as co-defendants when customers sue them for damaging their health.

And their wallets! It may turn out that some of the zero band road tax vehicles will jump up a band or three..
Anyone here got a Vw/Audi /Skoda diesel?

 

[tillson]

And their wallets! It may turn out that some of the zero band road tax vehicles will jump up a band or three..
Anyone here got a Vw/Audi /Skoda diesel?

One of our cars is a VW Golf TDI Bluemotion. It's a 2012 model with the 2.0 litre 140 hp diesel engine. So almost certainly one of the affected cars.

The car is currently £30 / year VEL and I can squeeze 70 + MPG out of it if driven carefully on the motorway. The performance isn't bad either, not far off my 16v Mk2 GTi.

My main concern is that the recall and subsequent modifications will result in reduced performance, increased MPG and increased VEL.

If there is to be an increase in VEL duty due to the real emissions being higher than those quoted at the point of sale, I think that the UK government should claim the differential from VW / Germany and not pass it on to the unsuspecting customer who bought the car in good faith. What has happened here is akin to, "clocking" a second hand vehicle and that is a criminal offence. However, I fully expect Cameron and Co to buckle at the merest hint of objection to this proposal from the Master Race, and pass the burden onto UK citizens .

I heard the new VW Commandant, Mr Lies (yes really), on the lunchtime news saying that the employees within VW who orchestrated this fraud should be held personally responsible. I wonder if this is an attempt to shift culpability onto the shoulders of private individuals, of limited wealth, who will be bankrupted instantly thus saving VW billions?

It would give me great pleasure to see the VW, Audi, Skoda brand fold as a result of this.

 

[Gubbins]

One of our cars is a VW Golf TDI Bluemotion. It's a 2012 model with the 2.0 litre 140 hp diesel engine. So almost certainly one of the affected cars.

The car is currently £30 / year VEL and I can squeeze 70 + MPG out of it if driven carefully on the motorway. The performance isn't bad either, not far off my 16v Mk2 GTi.

My main concern is that the recall and subsequent modifications will result in reduced performance, increased MPG and increased VEL.

If there is to be an increase in VEL duty due to the real emissions being higher than those quoted at the point of sale, I think that the UK government should claim the differential from VW / Germany and not pass it on to the unsuspecting customer who bought the car in good faith. What has happened here is akin to, "clocking" a second hand vehicle and that is a criminal offence. However, I fully expect Cameron and Co to buckle at the merest hint of objection to this proposal from the Master Race, and pass the burden onto UK citizens .

I heard the new VW Commandant, Mr Lies (yes really), on the lunchtime news saying that the employees within VW who orchestrated this fraud should be held personally responsible. I wonder if this is an attempt to shift culpability onto the shoulders of private individuals, of limited wealth, who will be bankrupted instantly thus saving VW billions?

It would give me great pleasure to see the VW, Audi, Skoda brand fold as a result of this.

I read somewhere that this has rekindled the "advertised mpg" issue, and about time too! My Audi A1 petrol with multi cylinder technology should do over 60mpg, but reality is very different .

 

[tillson]

I read somewhere that this has rekindled the "advertised mpg" issue, and about time too! My Audi A1 petrol with multi cylinder technology should do over 60mpg, but reality is very different .

I find the MPG figures can be achieved with our Golf. I can't get the claimed 80 MPG but I can get it into the 70s. It's not really practical to drive it that way all the time though and I would say that a realistic average is in the high 50s.

I had quite a gap in VW ownership from my Mk2 to the current one. The ownership experience has plummeted. The VW main dealership network is like swimming in a tank of sharks. They are constantly searching for loopholes to get out of their obligations and trying to talk you into unnecessary work being carried out on the car.

 

[shemozzle999]

It is a timely admission, they would have been in a lot a trouble under the new consumer rights act which comes into force today.

Although the motor industry is exempted from some of the act the modified cheat watchdog programming in the digital content required for the ECU, I believe, would have attracted attention.

 

[Artstu]

I have a feeling the tuning companies may be busy once all these cars are turned down to super low emissions specification, with some owners missing the performance and driveability of the full fat version.

If I owned one I certainly wouldn't want to take it in.

Chip tuning heaven.

 

[tillson]

I

I have a feeling the tuning companies may be busy once all these cars are turned down to super low emissions specification, with some owners missing the performance and driveability of the full fat version.

If I owned one I certainly wouldn't want to take it in.

Chip tuning heaven.

As things stand, I won't be taking my car in for any modifications. I believe that the latest proposal involves changing or modifying the exhaust system. The modified system utilised a chemical which needs replenishing at £50 a time. No doubt the base cost of this chemical is about 50p, allowing a new revenue stream to open up from the customers which VW have committed this emissions fraud against.

 

[Gubbins]

I


As things stand, I won't be taking my car in for any modifications. I believe that the latest proposal involves changing or modifying the exhaust system. The modified system utilised a chemical which needs replenishing at £50 a time. No doubt the base cost of this chemical is about 50p, allowing a new revenue stream to open up from the customers which VW have committed this emissions fraud against.

How long will it take to modify 11 million cars?

 

[tillson]

How long will it take to modify 11 million cars?

That will depend on the exact nature of the modification. If it's a tweak to the ECU software, not long, 6 months. If it's a new exhaust system as mentioned above, 1 to 2 years. I hope this bankrupts them.