Bosch e-bike Latest

[brucehawsker]

This is precisely my conundrum. Surely it matters whether it is 26V or 36V but everyone seems to focus on AmpH....

 

[tangent]

The voltage does matter. It is easier to deliver power at high voltage than low voltage. To power an apparatus with say 500W you could deliver 500A to it with 1V but this would require exceptionally thick cables between the power supply and the apparatus. Much better to supply 20A at 25V, or better still 2A at 250V. Other factors come into play as the voltage rises, e.g. 250V is a lethal voltage, but we put up with 240V at home instead of a safer 24V as we do not want thick cables around our houses.

The national grid runs at 400,000 volts!

 

[flecc]

This is precisely my conundrum. Surely it matters whether it is 26V or 36V but everyone seems to focus on AmpH....

Of course, but as I said, even 10 Ah looks mean these days, Wisper, eZee and some other 36 volt e-bikes now
moving to much higher, 14, 16 and even 17 Ah, one with optional add-on battery in circuit for increased range.

In this environment 8 Ah just won't cut it in marketing terms, whether 26 or 36 volt. As Tangent showed, a 36
volt 8 Ah battery is still a miserly 288 Wh in today's new 500 to 600 Wh world.
.

 

[tangent]

Flecc has a good point about the marketing. However, increased battery sizes come with increased £s and increased lbs. If you need a 18Ah batttery fine, but if you only need an 8Ah there is little to be gained going larger. I manage absolutely fine with a 10Ah 26V battery, rarely doing more than 20 miles between charges. My old bike came with a 6.5Ah 24V NiMH battery and that was ok as well.

There are people on this forum who use home made 37V 2.3Ah batteries!

 

[Barnowl]

Said in a macho voice - my batteries smaller than yours.

 

[flecc]

If you need a 18Ah batttery fine, but if you only need an 8Ah there is little to be gained going larger.

I agree, but the ideal solution is a range of options from e-bike makers like those coming on the Panasonic system.
eZee also offer a choice of 10 Ah or 14 Ah, plus an add-on option in parallel to go up into the twenties. Hopefully
more will do this in future.

However, it should be borne in mind that larger capacity lithium batteries last longer due to less stress and also
give higher performances due to better high current delivery. For some these attributes can be valuable.
.

 

[Chief eZee Power]

eZee's direction

eZee has a small stand at the Eurobike, and there is an explosion of suppliers for ebikes, drive systems and etc. With all the big brand high end sports bikes also going for the electric, and one bike going for 10,000 Euro, a very different scene from 10 years ago.

For the ordinary commuters we will keep to basics, high efficiency, high reliability and value for money. With more battery casings and attachment possibility we could fit 1000s of different bike types and designs some of which we will select in our programme in 2011. We will have torque sensor system options, various new hubs like NuVinci, Alfines and etc.

I will start the tooling immediately for LiFePO4 battery to take 38.4V x 12 Ah (460 Wh) and considering a warranty for 3 years, and parallel secondary attachment comes with all new bikes, and users would still be able to connect their old battery in parallel to extend the useful life. Still in the same basic design and will fit all eZeebikes out on the road. It is also not difficult for current eZeebikes to be fitted with a parallel connections.

Chief eZee Operator

 

[kraeuterbutter]

hey..
i think you focus too much only on Wh of the batteries when comparing Panasonic and Bosch

i think there are some more features, more interesting than that...
bigger batteries will come...

i think first benefit over the Panasonic:

• no little pinion to drive the chain !
  so less chain wear
• hopefully for that not so prone for dirt
• short wheel-base, so bike stays more agil compared to all the flyer-variants sold until now
• 3 sensors - so maybe nice (maybe opposite ?)
• very important: REAL Speed-sensor
  Panasonic does the 25km/h-limit only with gearing and motor-rpm
  resulting in bikes, you have to pedal realy slow when going up a hill
  on the bosch there is a real speedsensor, measuring the speed of the wheel and limiting at 25km/h
  so you are not limited in crank-rpm when going up a steep hill like on the panasonic

hopefully they get rid of that vibrating-issue people reported when trying it at the presentation

Watt and Wh... from this standpoints allone you should not judge over a bike


for the "more volt is better"-thing

also: don´t overrate this !

look at a 48V Battery (5Ah) compared to a 24V Battery (10Ah)...
both batteries 240Wh, both batteries same weight (and price)

yes, for 480watt you need 10A on the 48V Battery
and 20A on the 24V Battery

so, you would say higher voltage is better, because less current..

BUT: the 48V batterie has double inner-restistance because only 5Ah instead of 10Ah
and double inner restistance becasue of double amount of cells in series..
so in sum the innerrestistance is 4 times higher than on the 24V batterie

so: double current on 24V battery (which means 4 times more looses) is balanced by 4 times lower inner restistance

the same for the motor:
for same rpm and power:
a 24V motor can use less windings (shorter windings = less inner restistance)
and because of shorter windings also thinker windings = again, less inner restistance)

so the same thing on the motor
for controller there are the same prinzips

the only thing, where higher voltage is for sure better are the wires..
but: with wires with little more streght you can overcome this also..

and: the looses in the wires at typicall low bike-currents are negligible anyway

so: you can build a motor/Drivetrain with 24V working at 90% effizienz
and you can build the same thing with 48V working at 90%

at least the differences are not as big as some might think of
(IF the system is build for a certain voltage)

 

[kraeuterbutter]

for the 440000Volt...
well.. yes

but please considere, that the electricity is transportet over several 100.000 meters

on a bike we speak about 1m or 2m of cable-length
so: negligible


hey: i like this bike:
http://www.eurobike-show.de/eb-wAssets/daten/pressebilder/eurobike100441.jpg



i like how they mounted the motor upside-down
in my opinion looks so much better than for example X-Flyer

this, with the hopefully sometimes coming raceable "dualdrive" (3 internal Hubgears, 10 chain-gears, only 620g light and durable = raceable !)

 

[alex_h]

is it serious competition for panasonic crank drive

Interesting to read about Bosch E-bike, it looks like a new big competition for Panasonic. TBH it looks great and solid, just like a Panasonic. Has anyone actually here ridden both Bosch and panasonic, any reviews anywhere which one seems to be perform better?

I actually tested once a panasonic and have to say it is quite a specific type of drive which is very good and I wonder if Bosch is the same.

Is anywhere in the UK any dealer that already stocks bikes with Bosch?

 

[eddieo]

Interesting to read about Bosch E-bike, it looks like a new big competition for Panasonic. TBH it looks great and solid, just like a Panasonic. Has anyone actually here ridden both Bosch and panasonic, any reviews anywhere which one seems to be perform better?

I actually tested once a panasonic and have to say it is quite a specific type of drive which is very good and I wonder if Bosch is the same.

Is anywhere in the UK any dealer that already stocks bikes with Bosch?

Dont think they are here yet, and probably will have to order from Europe in the first place when they do appear.......But Kalkhoff have come up trumps with the timely introduction of a new range of bikes with 18 Ah batteries that are available now.

In theory the Bosch should be great, but doubts re battery capacity have dampened enthusiasm a bit I guess, will have to wait and see but a nice looking system for sure

 

[Streethawk]

Ground clearance must be an issue with that right? I mean, a big curb would wipe out the motor!

 

[Lloyd]

Interesting to read about Bosch E-bike, it looks like a new big competition for Panasonic. TBH it looks great and solid, just like a Panasonic. Has anyone actually here ridden both Bosch and panasonic, any reviews anywhere which one seems to be perform better?

I actually tested once a panasonic and have to say it is quite a specific type of drive which is very good and I wonder if Bosch is the same.

Is anywhere in the UK any dealer that already stocks bikes with Bosch?

I got a chance to sling my leg over the Bosch at Eurobike and have ridden plenty of panasonics throughout my time. Here's my slightly biased (We have Panasonic driven bikes) but honest two-penneth for what it is worth.

The Bosch is fitted differently on different bikes, so on some ground clearance seemed lethal, others weren't so bad. Eurobike test track was flat as a pancake though so no Kerbs to try and bounce off-of

The power delivery is totally different to the panasonic. It uses different sensors (the Panasonic torque sensor is patent protected), and therefor has a different feel. That is going to be down to personal preference as to which each individual prefers.

The Bosch has way more buttons and options than Panasonic. I personally found it a bit too much, and had no idea what mode I was in when riding.

Battery fitment differs from manufacturer to manufacturer. Some mount on seat tube, some on downtube, which is a nice touch.

My thoughts were that it looks nice, seems well built, but seemed to lack the low-down grunt I am used to with the Panasonic. When talking to the very knowledgeable lady on the Bosch stand, she informed me that because of the speed sensors inside the unit, you couldn't make the unit assist to a higher rpm by changing the gearing. You can decide for yourself if that is a good thing or not ( I couldn't possibly comment )! The buttons were overwhelming and complex, but overall a nice unit. Would have been nice to test it on a steep hill and to try and break one, which is one reason why I put my name down for a sample

Yes I am going to be hard to win over the Panasonic, and somewhat biased, but it's worth remembering that I went to Eurobike to look for systems to develop our product to perform better, so I have a very open mind.

 

[mahaca1]

Here, we can see a guy climbing a very large hill riding a haibike.

YouTube - Haibike eQ Xduro - Fahrt mit fliegender Kamera

 

[james@justebikes.co.uk]

Bosch VS Panasonic

I got a chance to sling my leg over the Bosch at Eurobike and have ridden plenty of panasonics throughout my time. Here's my slightly biased (We have Panasonic driven bikes) but honest two-penneth for what it is worth.

The Bosch is fitted differently on different bikes, so on some ground clearance seemed lethal, others weren't so bad. Eurobike test track was flat as a pancake though so no Kerbs to try and bounce off-of

The power delivery is totally different to the panasonic. It uses different sensors (the Panasonic torque sensor is patent protected), and therefor has a different feel. That is going to be down to personal preference as to which each individual prefers.

The Bosch has way more buttons and options than Panasonic. I personally found it a bit too much, and had no idea what mode I was in when riding.

Battery fitment differs from manufacturer to manufacturer. Some mount on seat tube, some on downtube, which is a nice touch.

My thoughts were that it looks nice, seems well built, but seemed to lack the low-down grunt I am used to with the Panasonic. When talking to the very knowledgeable lady on the Bosch stand, she informed me that because of the speed sensors inside the unit, you couldn't make the unit assist to a higher rpm by changing the gearing. You can decide for yourself if that is a good thing or not ( I couldn't possibly comment )! The buttons were overwhelming and complex, but overall a nice unit. Would have been nice to test it on a steep hill and to try and break one, which is one reason why I put my name down for a sample

Yes I am going to be hard to win over the Panasonic, and somewhat biased, but it's worth remembering that I went to Eurobike to look for systems to develop our product to perform better, so I have a very open mind.

Hi Lloyd, happy to lend you a Haibike XDuro. Perhaps we can organise a tug of war to see if Bosch torque is a match for Panasonic? (well you did ask!)

And in case any of you are wondering why i'm up at this hour..... just back from delivering pair of Kogas to manchester client and now decompressing with glass of warm milk.

Rgds,
James

 

[eddieo]

Well it seems the Halibike is going down VERY well over on German pedelec forums, and the Bosch powered off roader becoming very popular with many e bike enthusiasts, swapping over from Panasonic/BionX for one......

These bikes are a breath of fresh air IMO they make the Kalkhoffs look like WW2 battle cruisers!lol