Big Saving on Brand New Haibike FS SL Electric bike on eBay..

Martin@e-bikeshop

Esteemed Pedelecer
Two and a half grand for an e-bike? And apparently four and a half grand for some of the more "exotic" models. Good luck.
WOW Leonard Young -
Yes that's correct £2.5K for an ebike. And as for our more 'exotic' models.. Well they are my better sellers.
I was just about to put you in your place, but it appears others above^^ Have done this already.
You cant compare a Micra to a Mercedes my friend.

Regards
Martin
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,203
30,604
Two and a half grand for an e-bike? - - - - - - - - -
This summer I'd get more enjoyment from the e-bike, but last "summer" the car choice would have won out most days!

But really it's both a horses-for-courses and an image choice issue. Some people buy a Toyota IQ for £11,000, some buy exactly the same car tarted up and called the Aston Martin Cygnet for over £31,000.

The latter's selling point isn't value for money, it's the image it reflects. Timex or Rolex.
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
5,048
www.kudoscycles.com
Two and a half grand for an e-bike? And apparently four and a half grand for some of the more "exotic" models. Good luck. I know someone who recently bought a ford focus estate with less than 40k on the clock, a years warranty, and all in fantastic condition. It has a largish engine, four wheels, five seats, a large boot, can do 85 mph effortlessly, has a radio, electric windows, air conditioning, and is good for another 80,000 miles at least. It's quite economical to run too. And it cost quite a bit less less than this new "bargain" of an e-bike.

No wonder the e-bike market in the UK is dismal and no wonder why hardly anyone is buying them. Honestly, it staggers me what people are prepared to pay. I don't always blame the retailers as I'm aware their margins are often cut to the bone by distributors, importers and manufacturers. But....really!
Leonard,I have a lot of sympathy with your posting. I do think us in the ebike industry are so surrounded by expensive high end bikes that we are starting to believe our own hype. The latest 29er from R&M,only £5-£6k,something of a bargain!!! We are all being dragged along some technology arms race and it seems the more suffixes you can add to a bikes name the more you can charge.
I am not saying that there is not a market for these high end machines and some do a good job for the money-in my opinion the KTM Macina Bold is a great all round bike,the Haibike is the best off road bike(the All Mountain reduced by £650 for 2013/2014) and the BH Emotion Neo Race is the best road race bike currently available. But what is missing is a nice entry level bike,Kudos are trying to keep our price point less than £1k but I will admit to going up to £1295.00 just because I wanted a flagship bike with a high specification,hydraulic brakes are easy on tired fingers,especially in a hilly area.
I am afraid where you are wrong is it is not the retailers who's margins are tight. Out of a £1k bike the manufacturer earns the least,the importer and retailer are both working on tight margins,about equally shared-this is one reason why the price points are migrating upwards,a £2k bike lets everyone have a bit more profit-this is also the reason why the £500-£800 bike is internet supply only,there is just not enough margin to give a profit to your local retailer,which is a shame because it is nice to go to your local dealer and be looked after in the buying process.
In an ideal world the entry level bike would cost £595.00,be stocked by your local dealer for instant delivery,be a good average spec of cheap but well proven components,be supported by a good stock of spare parts,be attractive in appearance.....to achieve that someone would have to buy a thousand plus bikes from one of the big Asian builders,all of one size and one style-but at the moment the market in the UK is just not big enough!
Our Kudos Cobra bike at £835.00 is about as close as we can get but I am sure others will offer their alternatives
KudosDave
 

LeonardYoung

Pedelecer
Jan 17, 2011
52
0
Allow me to make something perfectly clear. I compared the CAPITAL cost (not running cost) of a second hand Ford Focus not to argue that a polluting, road clogging, non-contributor to fitness is superior in concept. I merely pointed out that even despite economies of scale in the motor industry, it is becoming more and more absurd that the sum of parts (frame, running gear, two wheels, saddle and a little hub motor plus battery) somehow manages to be the same price as a somewhat more involved contraption with about 200 more parts, all rather well put together.

The comparison was just that and no more.

Someone, somewhere is taking the mick when a simple e-bike (and compared to a car it IS simple) is approaching not only the price of a used car but is now getting near the price of whole NEW car.

I well understand that those who have refined requirements due to their enthusiasm for the best materials, lowest weight, best running gear etc etc, are prepared to pay a premium. But for several years now I have watched the e-bike market divide itself into two polarised extremes, with a lot of support for extremely expensive bikes, and another faction, said to be inverted on the snobbery scale, which reacts with a mixture of wonderment and some lampooning at such outrageous prices.

The argument that my point might be ridiculous on account of bicycles being so much better for health and environment doesn't really cut it for me (but nice try!). A similar argument could be applied for example to running shoes. Running shoes might encourage a better lifestyle and tend to encourage a healthier way of transporting oneself, but a pair of shoes which cost £2000 just because they are "healthier" still doesn't quite justify the ludicrous price!

What potential e-bikers are looking for is VALUE, which ever end of the premium or budget scale they are opting for. I'm sorry that I simply do not see much value in forking out £2500, or indeed £4,500 for an e-bike. I'm not discouraging anyone from spending such a huge amount if that's what they want, but I do think such willingness is encouraging a polarised market to further exaggerate price difference which seem to be based more on perceived quality than actual quality.

Before everyone piles in let me explain. I'm not technical about bikes but I'm not an idiot either. Several years ago I bought a chinese-supplied folder with a 200w motor on the hub. I was at the time delightfully surprised how well made it was, and indeed several bicycling friends who know much more than me were also surprised at how solidly it is built. I've just ordered a new battery for less than £200 which will give me another three years use. The cost of the bike was less than £600. So for a total of around £800 I will have a bike that will last at least a total of seven years. I consider that to be good VALUE. I didn't buy it to be a cheapskate and nor did I need anything better. If I did, I might go up to £1000 but that would be my limit, in the same way that if I wanted a new watch I would never buy a rolex, because I can buy a perfectly good, handsome, well made, stylish watch for a 50th of the price and it serves its function. In the case of a rolex, I also find them brash and rather ugly.

I'm not sure I agree that retailers are not being squeezed. In my search for a battery (and it is not ONLY cheap e-bikes which are victims of lack of replacement parts), I contacted several retailers many of whom told me they had entered the e-bike market with good intentions but gave up after it became impossible to make any tangible mark up at all. I concede these were probably never going to be specialists and they probably were out of their depth in a still niche market. One retailer told me a customer ordered a Claud Butler e-bike at the knock down price advertised by Butler's, but they told the retailer HE would have to buy it in at their regular price, resulting in a loss for the retailer. I do not know whether this is common, and I recognise that many more successfully e-bike "makers" supply direct.

I do think there is an element of defensiveness about the purchase of expensive kit, and we all tend to need to justify an expensive purchase, often by exaggerating the value of something merely because we paid over the odds for it. As I said, if someone really wants to spend a wad of cash on a bike they perceive to be a "Mercedes" compared to a "Micra" that's up to them. What is worrying however is that, after combing through ads for the kind of bike that suits me (modest, reliable folder) I see such absurd differences in price for machinery that is clearly almost the same (chinese frame, Shimano gears, virtually identical running gear and tyres etc etc) despite the marketing men trying their best to tell me they are not the same, that the only real difference might be after-sales service. Luckily, I haven't needed any after sales service, since my modest folder rides today as well as it did the moment I unpacked it and went for my first ride, and any servicing I need can be done by a local chap who turns up in a van and charges me a small amount to give it a professional look over.

Concluding then, by all means please do market and then purchase your "rolex" e-bikes. I know there are many here who are looking for value too. Not value in the form of cheapo, flimsy, fall-to-bits stuff but genuinely good value machines that serve their purpose. I'm sure there are complicated reasons why e-bikes have not caught on in the UK, but one of them might be that potential customers are looking at a market where there are such extreme price differences for what even an expert would consider virtually the same specs, and this is bound to arouse suspicion in the minds of the people the e-bike industry wishes to win over.

Allow me to part with one more observation: With some noble exceptions, why are a good many e-bikes so ugly? Of course this is subjective, but to me some of them (see the right hand side of this page!) look like clod-hopping bits of (always black) scaffolding tube cobbled together in random shapes without any sense of design, elegance or aesthetic? ("Ah" you say..."not only a cheapskate but NOW you want a sense of design flare AS WELL for your few hundred quid!!"). I wouldn't mind actually, but gold and silver bling doesn't represent elegant design for me.

Anyway, I'm off for a ride on my battle ship grey e-folder which is comfortable, goes the same speed as almost all the other battle ship grey e-folders costing three times as much, and gives me great pleasure. My best wishes and hope you enjoy this sunny Monday!
 
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Martin@e-bikeshop

Esteemed Pedelecer
Hi Leonard,

Thanks for your expanded explanation.
I think the point to be missed here is the particular model of ebike is worth £2K without the motor, battery etc. If I were to sit it on the shelf here as a normal bike.

It all comes down to purpose and I think its un-fair to compare circumstances between you buying your casual folder and a serious off road piece of kit.

I don't think you can compare them to 'Rolex' ebikes. Yes any watch will perform the same function of ultimately telling the time.

Yes by all means for your riding conditions the folder sounds perfect and does the job in hand.
But if you were to throw both bikes down the alps for a week.. Which one would last even 1 run?

I have 2 types of customer walk into my store -
1) Walks past the Haibike, see's the price and says 'I could buy a car for that!'
2) Walks past the Haibike, see's the bike and says 'my god that's really well specc'd with components I would rate on my own mountain bike. My god, that price is less than I paid for my regular mountain bike."

You have to consider my Alton store is a Mountain Bike orientated shop where we sell mountain bikes ranging from £299 to in excess of £5K on a daily basis.

Regards
Martin
 

LeonardYoung

Pedelecer
Jan 17, 2011
52
0
Hi Martin,

I do concede that the bike in question was a specialist machine and yes I agree my folder would not survive an afternoon in the Alps! Sorry if I picked on you. Perhaps I was aiming at other, less exotic machines that really are little different from my modest folder but go for, let's see....around £1200-£1500. I don't expect these suppliers to match a bolt-hole, here today, gone tomorrow ebay seller, but there is a middle way!

All the best.
 

LeonardYoung

Pedelecer
Jan 17, 2011
52
0
I am afraid where you are wrong is it is not the retailers who's margins are tight. Out of a £1k bike the manufacturer earns the least,the importer and retailer are both working on tight margins,about equally shared-this is one reason why the price points are migrating upwards,a £2k bike lets everyone have a bit more profit-this is also the reason why the £500-£800 bike is internet supply only,there is just not enough margin to give a profit to your local retailer,which is a shame because it is nice to go to your local dealer and be looked after in the buying process.
In an ideal world the entry level bike would cost £595.00,be stocked by your local dealer for instant delivery,be a good average spec of cheap but well proven components,be supported by a good stock of spare parts,be attractive in appearance.....to achieve that someone would have to buy a thousand plus bikes from one of the big Asian builders,all of one size and one style-but at the moment the market in the UK is just not big enough!
Our Kudos Cobra bike at £835.00 is about as close as we can get but I am sure others will offer their alternatives
KudosDave
Thanks for that Dave. Well maybe my Claud Butler example is a one-off, but that was not the only story I heard. As a general point, I was talking about snobbery, a subject that I see has come up on this forum quite a lot.

The greatest snobbery I see in fact comes from retailers who just are not into e-bikes but are into high-end, super-fitness bikes with the kind of tech arms race features you described. I made the mistake of walking into my local bike shop which fitted the above description, looking for a bar end mirror. The level of barely supressed sneering rendered the staff member's lip almost permanently stuck on one side, such was his clear disdain for my folder!

I casually asked whether his shop might in future deal in e-bikes. The condecension was palpable. "We only sell PROPER bicycles here sir". And that perhaps is another reason why e-bike sales are not what they might be. The lycra brigade are in the ascendent here on the Sussex coast, sweeping apart all in their way as they charge by the more sedate walkers taking in the sea air, all but bulldozed aside by the lycra wearer's sense of entitlement to a free and aggressive passage at breakneck speed, however inconvenient to others.

It is more than pricing that the e-bike industry needs to solve. The snobbery is coming from the racing bikers who feel the e-biker is a lazy dilittante not deserving of even a space on the path!
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
5,048
www.kudoscycles.com
Leonard,I agree with everything in your previous posting....this snobbery thing is a peculiarly british trait and I experience it at every UK show we attend,completely different attitude to ebikes in Holland where they are perceived as a means of transport.
I exhibited at the London Excel Cycle Show,some guy from UK cycling was attempting to keep ebikes off the test track because they were not 'proper' bikes-he was put in his place by the organisers.
But through it all the ebike message is getting through,the market is expanding,Kudos had its best week,last week,for ebike sales and gradually the age range of customers is reducing.
KudosDave
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,203
30,604
I'm sure there are complicated reasons why e-bikes have not caught on in the UK, but one of them might be that potential customers are looking at a market where there are such extreme price differences for what even an expert would consider virtually the same specs, and this is bound to arouse suspicion in the minds of the people the e-bike industry wishes to win over.

Allow me to part with one more observation: With some noble exceptions, why are a good many e-bikes so ugly? Of course this is subjective, but to me some of them (see the right hand side of this page!) look like clod-hopping bits of (always black) scaffolding tube cobbled together in random shapes without any sense of design, elegance or aesthetic?
The biggest problem has been the market scale. For more than a decade there have been numerous attempts at marketing e-bikes at very reasonable prices, but just as many of the companies trying to do this have failed. Very reasonable prices mean small margins which have often failed to carry the seller through the long dead periods of what is a seasonal trade. Even the company claiming to be the world's largest cycle manufacturer, Giant of Taiwan, discontinued their successful Lafree Lite range in 2006 simply on the grounds that they had never been able to make any profit on them. Worldwide the total of the three models they had sold in six years was just 20,000, a pathetic total for what was considered a successful model range!

Today's motor industry enjoys volumes that e-bike makers can only dream of.

And this ties in with your very valid point on style. The occasional company such as Gazelle which has on odd occasions tried to bring style with special components has only been able to do so at very high prices in such a small market. Design styling and the development of stylish components costs a lot of money which demands volume sales.

I remember a motor industry man many years ago making the observation of what a raw deal high-end car customers got at the time. He pointed to the volume Cortina area market where customers got sophisticated suspension and aeroflow ventilation among other refinements, while the small volume high-end cars often still had cart-horse suspension and had to have a window wound down to get fresh air. The costs of refinement for the high-end were too great for the small volume they had at the time, even at their much greater margins.

Henry Ford is often attributed with the credit for popularising cars with low prices, but in truth he only succeeded because he had a product the great majority really very much desired. In many advanced countries like Britain, the USA, Canada and Australia only a tiny minority want any sort of bike. In both the third world and the developing world bikes are looked down upon as for the poor, hardly anyone actually desiring them.

These market conditions are not conducive to e-bike development with style and good value at low prices.
.
 
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LeonardYoung

Pedelecer
Jan 17, 2011
52
0
Hi Flecc,

Good to have your contribution. I don't know exactly how reliable these figures are: But according to various sources, total e-bikes sold last year in Europe as a whole = 380,000. Sounds quite good until you compare that to plain bicycles. Contrast China where e-bikes are an obvious choice where cars are beyond people's pockets (some irony there perhaps linking back to my original point about Bikes approaching the cost of used cars here!) 180 MILLION e-bikes estimated in China.

When talking of style, I wasn't particularly referring to style that requires a large budget. Some would argue that the original Austin/Morris Mini was a triumph in beautiful style at an amazingly affordable price. And other "brands" whose original concept was based on simplicity and elegance (original Fiat 500 anyone?), or for that matter a waiter's wine corkscrew which is still used in preference to the gadget pump and pull stuff you see in the style magazines.

None of these "styles" cost more to produce. They merely required a bit more imagination. Must say I am impressed by Tern folders which are not only very pretty but have some great innovations (such as a full length pump which forms part of the seat tube), but even Tern bikes have gone up markedly in price, no doubt conscious of their style appeal. Another example is the MX5. I owned a Mark 1 for many years and I loved its simplicity. I traded it in for a Mark 2 which never had the same magic, and after a test drive in a Mark 3 I sorely miss my old Mark 1, which now sells for a small fraction of the other two.

I agree the market conditions as they stand are probably a poor encouragement for elegance and style in e-bikes. A pity as I think a mid-priced e-bike which is attractive, has paint which isn't black, white or grey, and has a little more thought put into it might just trigger a response that lasts.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,203
30,604
Thanks for the reply Leonard. Your mention of Europe brings to the fore two more problems, the first of which is the great difference of the people of the most cycle friendly countries like The Netherlands and Germany who account for most of those e-bike sales, they've taken to e-bikes like ducks to water. They of course are the exceptions in the cycle unfriendly world I described.

And that in turn introduces the other problem, national views on what an e-bike is. In the low countries where e-bikes are most popular, they want and buy fully legal quite low powered quality pedelecs like those from Sparta, Koga, Gazelle, Giant and Batavus, and are not price sensitive. In China an e-bike is what we'd call a moped, looking like a dualseat scooter with pedals that are rarely used in the presence of a circa 700 watt motor. In Britain a high proportion of the few desiring an e-bike want a very normal looking sporting e-bike, capable of at least 20 mph with often more demanded plus easy hill climbing. And Britain is overall very price sensitive. In the USA e-bikes are rarely used seriously as transport, they are regarded as fun machines for mucking about in general, often with high powers and speeds. And the national laws worldwide are very diverse, having hardly any compatibility, the USA having separate widely differing laws for each state.

You can see the problem, far from it being one market worldwide with the benefits of manufacturing scale, it's a very fragmented market with large differences in desires. So China supplies the Chinese e-bike market plus whatever of their own and adapted designs they can get into other countries, and the cycle friendly countries of northern Europe are supplied with pedelecs by the two huge Dutch cycle manufacturing groups Accell and Pon with small additional sales to such as Britain and the USA. And of course the Dutch customers are very happy with their own designs, they don't see them as ugly at all.
.
 
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LeonardYoung

Pedelecer
Jan 17, 2011
52
0
Hi Flecc,

Yes I agree, in China an e-bike is a utility machine that is essential transport. The Dutch approach to e-biking also makes sense when you consider that for decades the average Dutch family sees bikes first as a just an A to B transport and not primarily as an object solely for getting fit, whereas in the UK the resurgence of bike usage has its root in the promotion of fitness. I think there is a lot of peer pressure among some UK cyclists to pay a large premium for these bikes in pursuit of super-light carbon frames, super thin tyres and all the accompanying accessories which they perceive enhances their cool and fitness image. Not dissimilar to the designer sports shoe fashion outbreak in the 90s.

And the Dutch are also practical when it comes to city bikes. In Amsterdam over 80% of bikes used for shopping trips are deliberately beaten up, somewhat rusted, "undesirable" looking behemoths which are clearly used in an effort to put off thieves. Perhaps they keep their Accell, Pon and other more fancy e-bikes safely in the house or garage only to emerge in situations that do not require parking and leaving them for a length of time.
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
5,048
www.kudoscycles.com
One of the problems unique to the UK is that so many of us prefer mountain style bikes whereas the Dutch have settled on primarily step thru curved handlebar styles. The Dutch style is pretty settled but in the UK we keep changing our minds on what we like-this is a problem because the technology cannot settle and therefore the R&D keeps starting from zero. The Kudos performance series is the first time that I have reordered the same spec bikes so maybe we have settled on that style.
KudosDave
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,203
30,604
And the Dutch are also practical when it comes to city bikes. In Amsterdam over 80% of bikes used for shopping trips are deliberately beaten up, somewhat rusted, "undesirable" looking behemoths which are clearly used in an effort to put off thieves. Perhaps they keep their Accell, Pon and other more fancy e-bikes safely in the house or garage only to emerge in situations that do not require parking and leaving them for a length of time.
I understand some actually make their new bikes look like old wrecks by hand painting and never washing them! The new e-bikes are definitely there though, in 2012 The Netherlands e-bike's market was 171,000 e-bikes sold and last January the e-bike fleet in the Netherlands reached 1 million units, this in a country with a third of Britain's population. There the e-bike has surpassed the city bike in sales volume with an overall market share of 16%.

Stats from Bike Europe.