Big brand vs lesser known?!

[Fluxing83]

Thanks in advance! I have a budget of between £1800 and £3000 on the cycle scheme and I’ve been looking for months at possible ebike options! I am swaying between something like a Big Game Bike/Radbike type rear hub or spending more on a touring cube of some description. I’ll be commuting 15 miles each way (or jumping on the train leaving about 2 miles each end).
My main question is - should I spend £1000 more for a cube crank drive or go for something cheaper with a hub drive? I am tempted by the throttle options of hub drive ebikes. Are the less well known brands as reliable and powerful in people experience?

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[sjpt]

Some less known cheap brands (ebay?) will certainly suffer from reliability issues. Other less known (but very well known on this site) such as Woosh and Wisper will be as reliable as any.

Crank drive will wear transmission a lot faster. Unless you have any really big hills or want to do some technical off road a rear hub is probably better for commuting. I'd go for a more conventional touring/hybrid style rear hub bike (eg https://wooshbikes.co.uk/?faro) rather than a radbike style myself.

Avoid Suntour based electrics; they still seem to have poor reliability. (see lots of posts on this forum)

 

[Fluxing83]

thanks so much for the reply and the heads up! Do you think that in reality your paying for the brand name to some extent? I’ll try and check if any models I have are suntour. I was looking at these two -

https://biggamebikes.com/product/bgb-impala

Or this

https://biggamebikes.com/product/bgb-buffalo

 

[atheo]

Why do you require 4" wide tyres,as they make the bike weigh alot!

 

[sjpt]

I think the Suntour is mainly on many lower end Halfords ebikes, and the Raleigh Array.

Those biggame bikes look quite fun. They don't look as if they would be at all fun if anything happened that meant you had to ride them unpowered for any distance (? more than 100 yards ?).

A big chunk of the cost of any bike is the battery; the bigger the more expensive. Those have huge capacity batteries, so as long as they are decent quality that is a big plus.

From the video they look as if they are not UK legal; part of which is the motor should not be powered over 4mph or so unless the pedals are being turned (just turned, you don't have to be pushing them). The throttle rules are a bit obscure so I may well be wrong, or they may have arranged specific approval. You are very unlikely to have any issues even if it is technically illegal, especially if you ride responsibly, but it is a point to consider.

 

[Fluxing83]

Why do you require 4" wide tyres,as they make the bike weigh alot!

Fun, I guess!

 

[atheo]

How about when, and if, you have to lift it off the train?

 

[Fluxing83]

I think the Suntour is mainly on many lower end Halfords ebikes, and the Raleigh Array.

Those biggame bikes look quite fun. They don't look as if they would be at all fun if anything happened that meant you had to ride them unpowered for any distance (? more than 100 yards ?).

A big chunk of the cost of any bike is the battery; the bigger the more expensive. Those have huge capacity batteries, so as long as they are decent quality that is a big plus.

From the video they look as if they are not UK legal; part of which is the motor should not be powered over 4mph or so unless the pedals are being turned (just turned, you don't have to be pushing them). The throttle rules are a bit obscure so I may well be wrong, or they may have arranged specific approval. You are very unlikely to have any issues even if it is technically illegal, especially if you ride responsibly, but it is a point to consider.

How about when, and if, you have to lift it off the train?

Valid point! Less fun then!

 

[Fluxing83]

I think the Suntour is mainly on many lower end Halfords ebikes, and the Raleigh Array.

Those biggame bikes look quite fun. They don't look as if they would be at all fun if anything happened that meant you had to ride them unpowered for any distance (? more than 100 yards ?).

A big chunk of the cost of any bike is the battery; the bigger the more expensive. Those have huge capacity batteries, so as long as they are decent quality that is a big plus.

From the video they look as if they are not UK legal; part of which is the motor should not be powered over 4mph or so unless the pedals are being turned (just turned, you don't have to be pushing them). The throttle rules are a bit obscure so I may well be wrong, or they may have arranged specific approval. You are very unlikely to have any issues even if it is technically illegal, especially if you ride responsibly, but it is a point to consider.

I believe you can change the settings via the display to reduce the output and how the throttle works. I’m hopi g to test ride both this week so will see how heavy they are! The impala could be really good as a folding option.

 

[AndyBike]

Crank drive will wear transmission a lot faster.

This is a bit of a fallacy. Drivetrains do wear out, but i feel theres an implication here that thats a monthly occurrence which simply isnt true. I usually go a couple of years before needing to swop out the rear cassette, and change the chain on average every 1000 miles or so.

 

[Chris M]

I changed my mid drive chain at 1500 miles. I guess they lost longer if you push gently and not so long if you push harder. I don’t see it as a big issue.
More important than where the drive Location is whether it has a cadence sensor or torque sensor. Generally, but not always, mid drives have torque sensors and hub drives have cadence sensors. These different sensor types make the ride very different. The torque sensor will give you a much more natural feel when pedalling - you basically feel like a 16 year old again on the hills. I find I can accelerate fantastically fast from zero with my torque sensor mid drive. My mid srive is a Bosch Aclive Line plus with a modest but useful 50Nm of torque.
I have recently been riding a hub drive with cadence sensor. This is a very different machine. The motor doesn’t kick in until one second after it sees the crank move. This makes for a slow initial start followed by a distinct kick. When cycling with a cadence sensor I find your speed is basically decided by the motor setting. This can be quite nice as it will give you a nice boost back up to cruising speed but not so nice when it comes to having fine control of your speed simply by pedalling. You can “ghost pedal” with a cadence sensor and the bike will run along quite nicely. My hub drive has 40-45Nm claimed torque. In theory I would expect the mid drive which runs through the same gears as the pedalling to be better for climbing very steep hills than slightly less powerful the hub drive. To my great surprise it isn’t. My hub drive bike seems to be able to conquer the steepest trail hills I use every bit as well as my mid drive. In fact the slightly less powerful hub drive seems to climb these very steep hills slightly better than the mid drive. There really isn’t much in it in terms of the amount of assistance from the two drives. The hub drive will help a bit more but will use more battery power while doing so.
Ultimately the big difference is the feel. The torque sensor gives a much better natural cycling feel but the hub drive with cadence sensor is generally cheaper and gives a little more push up hills. You pay your money and you take your choice.

 

[Fluxing83]

This is SO useful and helpful. Thank you!
As an update - I tested out the buffalo and impala from big game bikes - and went with the impala. The battery size, build quality and folding ability were the main factors for me. It was also REALLY FUN and comfortable to ride, more so than any more traditional style tourers I tried out. I couldn’t see a massive difference in build quality between the big game bikes range or the £1000 more expensive haibike/cube/trek that I tested. I also liked that I’d be able to upgrade and replace parts easily.

 

[guerney]

I have recently been riding a hub drive with cadence sensor. This is a very different machine. The motor doesn’t kick in until one second after it sees the crank move. This makes for a slow initial start followed by a distinct kick.

On the mid-drive BBS01b cadence sensored kit, there's a firmware setting for a more gradual onset of power - I found the sudden lurch worrying, and got rid of it. If there's no way to similarly mitigate this "Kick", I wouldn't be as keen to try a hub drive motor. The bbs01b's original "Kick" into action didn't feel safe, especially on U-turns, which were impossible to do.

 

[Bikes4two]

Mid drives - if you power up your motor to ride like a Tour de France rider then of course you drive train will wear faster than when 'normal' riding.

I'm no slouch and my 9 speed KMC chain (obtained from Decathlon under their own brand name) is JUST showing signs of wear at 3,700km (as measured by an accurate chain wear gauge, and I'm not one to fuss over excessive chain cleaning either).

Drive train components come in different qualities from the top end stuff from SRAM, Campagnolo, Shimano etc, all the way down to the cheap stuff from who knows where.

So when you read comments about excessive drive train wear with mid drive systems, treat them with a large pinch of salt.

 

[graywok]

I have always asked the retailer " Can I buy a replacement battery in 4-5 years time and how much would that cost? " . Then see what the answer is.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

Mid drives - if you power up your motor to ride like a Tour de France rider then of course you drive train will wear faster than when 'normal' riding.

I'm no slouch and my 9 speed KMC chain (obtained from Decathlon under their own brand name) is JUST showing signs of wear at 3,700km (as measured by an accurate chain wear gauge, and I'm not one to fuss over excessive chain cleaning either).

Drive train components come in different qualities from the top end stuff from SRAM, Campagnolo, Shimano etc, all the way down to the cheap stuff from who knows where.

So when you read comments about excessive drive train wear with mid drive systems, treat them with a large pinch of salt.

It's a simple engineering fact, if you have a rider who is providing 20-50Nm of torque and a motor providing 0-100Nm of torque all going through the same chain its going to wear faster than a load shared between hub motor and drivetrain which are independent on hub motor ebikes. It's extremely rare for a hub motor ebike to snap a chain. However the one area they do share load is the rear spokes for rear motor hub ebikes. Both are providing power to the rear wheel but again typically rear hub motor spokes last longer simply because they are shorter and flexing less. Just like a 20" wheel compared to 26" wheels etc.

There is also the factor that many pre-built mid-drive ebikes using higher end groupsets and these typically have thinner chains with thinner plates hence why 10 speed quick links and above are typically single use where as 9 speed or less are multi-use.

Even the cheapest nastiest ebikes with hub motors often have chains and drivetrains that last a very long time. Sometimes ridiculously long for lighter riders.

I've seen it written that hub motors can extend drivetrain life by 3x compared to normal bicycles and mid-drive motors can wear out drivetrains 3x as fast as normal bicycles so that is a difference of 9x between different types. However there are so many variables and varying specifications. A £400 ebike with a rear hub motor that only generates 15Nm of torque is not going to reduce wear of the chain to the same extent as a hub motor with 60Nm of torque and a mid-drive motor with only 40Nm of torque is not going to wear out a chain like a 105Nm mid-drive motor used for steep inclines off-road. All things being relatively equal though a hub motor should massively extend drivetrain life compared to mid-drive it wouldn't make any sense if it didn't.

 

[sjpt]

I have always asked the retailer " Can I buy a replacement battery in 4-5 years time and how much would that cost? " . Then see what the answer is.

Trouble is. Answer now, Yes, £300.
Ask in 4-5 years "Can I buy a replacement battery now" and you may get a very different answer.

Still, it's a good question, and better asked than not.

 

[saneagle]

So when you read comments about excessive drive train wear with mid drive systems, treat them with a large pinch of salt.

A person pedals with 100w and has the bike on the lowest power setting of 100w. A hub motor bike will have 100w going through the drive system and the crank one will have 200w. That is twice the load for the crank driven one

The person turns up the power to maximum of 400w, then the hub motor will have 100w going through the drive system and the crank one 500w. That is 5 times the load.

Any engineer will tell you that things wear out quicker if you push them harder. Maybe you need to reword your comment or can you explain what magic a crank drive bike uses to avoid the laws of physics.

 

[Bikes4two]

Chain wear - I see the points you make and no arguments there, but at the end of the day I've got 3700km out of my chain (I'll probably change it at 4000km to be on the safe side). It could be that if I'd had that same chain on an unassisted bike, I'd have got 7000km out of it, who knows?

Clearly a hub motor will give less drivetrain wear, especially if used in whole or in part for ghost peddling.

The point I wanted to get across is that drivetrain wear is often quoted as a bit of a no-no for going for a mid drive but the wear is a small additional cost for those wanting torque assist power in a mid drive versus the alternative hub drive systems.

I don't seem to be as good with words as I used to be so I'll put my argument another way:

• let's say in my younger days I used to put 100w power through my drivetrain on my unassisted bike but now that I'm older, it's only 50w
• So I buy a mid drive bike/motor (TSDZ2 kit in my case) to make up the difference so I can get back to riding as I used to
• So 50w from me and 50w from the motor
• The above is pretty much me and the way I use my ebike and is probably why I have the experience whereby drivetrain/chain wear seems no different to my unassisted days.
• Of course, as is rightly said above, if the ebike is now by virtue of the motor being driven harder than the unassisted bike was, then drivetrain wear will be proportionaly increased, but not excessively so as maybe implied by the way some comment about mid drive drivetrain wear.
• And of course the first time cyclist (or someone coming back to cycling after a long break) and taking on a mid drive ebike, won't have anything to compare with anyway.

 

[egroover]

Everyone gets hung up on mid drives eating drivetrain components...on my Bafang BBS01 mid drive conversion I've been running a Sunrace 11-40t 9speed cassette and KMC x9 chain, about £29 for the cassette and about £12 for the chain (both from Amazon). 2500 miles in and still on the original cassette and chain (chain is getting worn, but will swap both at the same time probably so they match)

So £40 every couple of years, I can live with that