BEBA UK Survey Results: Executive Summary

[GaRRy]

Or maybe due to foot/ankle/leg/knee/hip and other health issues the rotational movement of peddling can only be done on a very occasional basis..

Not everyone is as able bodied as others, and we wouldn't want to confine them to mobility scooters.. would we

Fully accept that some people have issues here and need assistance and also said I fully support throttles.

Howeve a lot seem to be implying that they need the throttle to give them assistance starting on a hill or for a fast get away which also implies that on the flat they have no issue starting of like any other cyclist. The point im making is I get that assitance on my bike without the need for a throttle. I just push down on the pedal and the motor kicks in straight away with virtually no noticable delay meaning a throttle would make no difference. Which draw me to the conclusion that the throttle is being used to compensate for a poor pedelec sensor.

 

[Old_Dave]

Disability in relation to e-bikes

Hi flecc, No I wasn't going down the disability requirements path (well not yet, I'm saving that one for later ) .. it was meant more as a 'less able bodied'

 

[flecc]

Hi flecc, No I wasn't going down the disability requirements path (well not yet, I'm saving that one for later ) .. it was meant more as a 'less able bodied'

As long as someone can press fairly firmly on a pedal, there are plenty of e-bikes that are perfectly ok for them. For example, those with the Panasonic and Bosch systems, the Neo models that Garry has, plus a number of others.

If course if anyone can't press firmly on a pedal and keep the crank rotating, they are probably mistaken in considering legal e-bikes and perhaps should register a disability. E-biking is cycling after all, and I can never see the legislators straying far from that concept without motor vehicle or disability registration.
.

 

[jazper53]

Seeing that Britain is vetoing itself out of Europe, and all of its expensive, nonsensical legislation that has plagued a failing, and now terminally ill European community. It will be only be a matter of time before we can have referendum to choose whether we can keep our Throttles.



Ps., IMHO

 

[flecc]

Seeing that Britain is vetoing itself out of Europe, and all of its expensive, nonsensical legislation that has plagued a failing, and now terminally ill European community. It will be only be a matter of time before we can have referendum to choose whether we can keep our Throttles.

That's so far from the truth where e-biking is concerned, Europe is our best friend! Britain had a 12 mph assist limit until Europe intervened with it's 25 kph (15.6 mph) law. Britain had, and on paper still has, a strict 200 watt limit that allows for none of the peak powers we enjoy now. Britain also has a restrictive 14 years lower age limit for e-bikes that no other European country suffers.

By all means vote yourself out of Europe, but if you think the tender mercies of a UK government are preferable, you are very sadly mistaken. Remember, it's our DfT which is being obstructive about keeping throttles, not Europe, they are not blocking us. It's the DfT that doesn't want us to enjoy the German style high speed or high power e-bike classes which can have throttles anyway. And it's our current government which wants to remove our protections under the Human Rights Act and substitute with a Bill of (Lack of) Rights.

 

[jazper53]

It wasn't really about e-biking just added "throttles" for a bit of humor and to maintain the thread topic

 

[eddieo]

Guess they are still propping up the H and C bar at tax payers expense as we have heard zilch........OH! Hang on a minute, these BEBA guys do it out of their own pockets. But all the other retailers who don't support BEBA and are quick to crititise at every oppertunity (mainly junk bike importers) will reap the benefit as well if anything is achieved...funny that

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Good meeting.

Discussions ranged far an wide. We will post something on Wednesday, tomorrow we are off to a BEBA meet in Birmingham to discuss the market and how to get more bums in saddles etc. etc.

VERY briefly.....

Non of this is written in stone but it seems to be the way we are going.

There will within the next three years be two classes of EPAC.

Class 1, A Pedelec as per EN15194 i.e. 250W, 25KPH no weight limit etc. with an independent throttle up to 6KPH and a throttle that will only work when the pedals are being turned forward up to 25KPH.

Class 2, As per Class 1 but with an independent throttle up to 25KPH.

Class 2 bikes with throttles that work without the pedals being turned forward (pedaling does not have to drive the bike forward!) will need Type Approval from 2016 forwards.

Bikes that have throttles and were on the road prior to the 2016 deadline will still be deemed to be legal.

When a bike has been Type Approved (each model costing the manufacturer/importer somewhere between £6k and £10k for approval), throttles to 25kph will be allowed and the vehicle will still be considered a bicycle. (No tax, insurance etc.) Exactly as per a class 1 bike.

Please do not make any buying or business decisions based on the above, this is simply my understanding of where the law is likely to go over the next few years.

All the best

David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

We were at the DfT building in Horseferry Road Eddie, no bar, not even a biscuit!

All the best

David

 

[eddieo]

Damnation! You were cheated...don't they know who you are!

I can see this developing into a long thread full of angst

So no S class for the UK?:

 

[Hero Eco]

Damnation! You were cheated...don't they know who you are!

I can see this developing into a long thread full of angst

So no S class for the UK?:

S Class is a bigger discussion. They are just changing licensing laws in Jan 2013. Its not a no, but they are putting us in touch with the right people....

 

[Scimitar]

One of the problems with providing a throttle is the design compromises. As the rest of Europe,with its big volumes,does not use throttles then a lot of the best brake/gearchange levers do not easily accomodate throttles. The cheaper SIS index levers are mainly high on the handlebars,this allows the throttle mechanism(twist grip)to be low on the handlebars but once you start using the best of the Shimano levers it is much more difficult to accomodate the throttle,even a thumb throttle.
Our attitude on performance bikes is,in order of priority,the brakes,then gearchange,then throttle. I think most would agree that good brakes and a nice gear change should not be compromised to achieve a throttle.
In an ideal world the throttle/gears/brakes would be designed as a unit but the volume of throttle equipped bikes just does not justify the tooling cost involved.
I respect that many ebike users in the UK would like,in some cases need,a throttle but it does make my design task so much more difficult-the handlebar does get very busy.
I will design according to the outcome of the government decisions.
Currently we are trying to put throttles on every Kudos new bike.
Dave
Kudoscycles

The one beef I have with the throttle is its length. I need a full-length throttle and a thumb throttle would be no good.
The length of the throttle itself isn't a problem really, but what it means is the free length remaining of the straight portion of the bar isn't adequate to fit my original index shifter and as a result I've had to utilise a non-indexed one, which can be a pita sometimes.
Just as I've got the bars all nicely set-up for my riding position I'm thinking seriously about changing them again, just to get that extra inch of straight length. I've been looking at BMX bars and wondering...
Trouble is, there's no decent LBS to me and I have to browse online availability, where sizes like that aren't shown.
Another thing a BMX bar would give me is a straight brace across them, which would be good for mounting lights, etc on.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

The one beef I have with the throttle is its length. I need a full-length throttle and a thumb throttle would be no good.
The length of the throttle itself isn't a problem really, but what it means is the free length remaining of the straight portion of the bar isn't adequate to fit my original index shifter and as a result I've had to utilise a non-indexed one, which can be a pita sometimes.
Just as I've got the bars all nicely set-up for my riding position I'm thinking seriously about changing them again, just to get that extra inch of straight length. I've been looking at BMX bars and wondering...
Trouble is, there's no decent LBS to me and I have to browse online availability, where sizes like that aren't shown.
Another thing a BMX bar would give me is a straight brace across them, which would be good for mounting lights, etc on.

why don't you just get 22mm bars and a new stem?

 

[Scimitar]

why don't you just get 22mm bars and a new stem?

I'm weighing up options at the moment - I don't want to end up with a collection of bars that I'll never use. I'll look at 22mm bars for suitability.

 

[neptune]

If we end up getting what it looks like we will get, we will be getting extra layers of red tape and bullshine, with no benefit to anyone. Why would a bike need Type Approval just because it has a throttle. It will be restricted to exactly the same speed as a pedelec only machine. Just an extra barrier to manufacturers at a time when they need all the help they can get. There is no type approval on pedal cycles which in the right hands are capable of much higher speeds. Suddenly I have a lot more respect for people who choose to ride illegal e bikes.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I absolutely agree Neptune, it is not a perfect result, but the best we could have hoped for.

The addition of a throttle to 25kph is now not an issue, the question is simply when the throttle will operate. The wording within EN15194 answers the question "when the pedals are being rotated in a forward direction" (or similar) and there is nothing we can do at this stage to get that wording changed or removed. So a pedelec that has a throttle which operates without the pedals rotating in a forward direction has to be Type Approved.

With my Wisper hat on, I am delighted with the way this seems to be going, of course we will have the added cost and effort of securing Type Approval but most importantly I think now we will be able to continue offering pedlecs with full throttles even after 2016.

All the best

David

 

[flecc]

If we end up getting what it looks like we will get, we will be getting extra layers of red tape and bullshine, with no benefit to anyone. Why would a bike need Type Approval just because it has a throttle. It will be restricted to exactly the same speed as a pedelec only machine. Just an extra barrier to manufacturers at a time when they need all the help they can get. There is no type approval on pedal cycles which in the right hands are capable of much higher speeds. Suddenly I have a lot more respect for people who choose to ride illegal e bikes.

Indeed this desire to needlessly take back when giving any concession is so much a feature of Britain's legislators. An example in our field was when the assist speed limit was increased from 12 mph to 15 mph to match Europe. A completely unnecessary lower age limit of 14 years was imposed, unique in Europe, as if 13 year old cyclists never rode at over 12 mph previously! It seems that whatever happens, we have to suffer either intransigence or bloody-minded implementations.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

In this case the DfT are happy to make the concession that we can in the UK still have a throttle on a bike that will be considered in every respect to be a bicycle. I believe a bike with full throttle in any other European state would not fall into this category. In Germany I understand it would be considered a Low Powered Moped and would have to be licensed and insured etc.

The feeling of the meeting yesterday was let's see how we can cut through the red tape and make it possible in the UK to allow a throttle with as little fuss as possible.

All the best

David

 

[flecc]

I can appreciate that David and greatly appreciate the work you've all put in, but the high costs of manufacturer type approval for each individual model is a very undesirable imposition for both yourselves and ultimately customers.

A throttle doesn't add to total power or speed, but it can add to safety in some circumstances and assist the physically compromised. Everything about that speaks to me of social desirability rather than any need for added control or restriction.

 

[eddieo]

But what will this mean for e bike kits?