Battery Weight vs Range... a dilemma

Nealh

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Ah, I stand corrected... 26F then,,, it's been 4 years since I opened one of the packs. 18650 pinkies though. I guess one battery of higher (double) capacity will logically be the best route to take.
Pink is one of Sam's often used cell wrap 22F, 26F, 26H, 26J, 29E, 30Q & 35E are all pinkies and most popularly used battery cells.
I carried both a 11ah (22F) & 13ah (26F) for about 100 miles range though I used a rear rack top bag when I had the oxydrive kit with the superb Bafang CST hub and swapped them over when lvc was hit .
The batteries only lasted me two years as I would drain them to lvc all the time to get the max range ( batteries imv are for using and there is always something better to use next time ). The cells as expected lost capacity so range dropped quite a bit and would only get me some 60 -65 miles , I still have most of the cells now some 8 /9 years on . They are used in torches some reconfigured for two 12s packs for other uses and the 22F's are still complete as a 36v softpackwhich also has another use where current draw or mileage isn't needed.

Later on I used a PF 14.5ah on the down tube and a PF 23.2ah in the rear rack bag , handling was good when riding but a bit cumbersome if pushing or manhandling the bike sometimes. This became my longer range set up and I could return home with 40% remaining and never hit LVC.

Old cell packs still have uses or the cells as individual cells do, one reason why I don't take them to a recycling centre until absolutely knackered. One can use them as mentioned for torches, reconfigure for smaller packs for power tools or low voltage gadgets where current demand has little effect on their usage.
If one had enough cells of the same mah then they could be made up into a power bank if one had solar or a stand alone panel in the garden to charge it with or wanted to make use of cheap electric rates with some tariffs.
One could easily use old cells for a larger portable power bank to run a pc /laptop, kettle or lighting during a rare power outage or as a regular supply for a pc etc,etc.
 

Nealh

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Just weighed my Hailong 48v 20Ah 960Wh battery - 4.8kg
My wife's Wisper 36V 700 Wh (19.5 Ah ?) battery, I think has LG cells - 3.5 kg

I think getting a 20Ah battery that weighs 3.5 kg is not much extra weight (how much does your existing 374Wh battery weigh ?) for
1) a lot more range
2) higher voltages / more power on shorter journeys
Going 48v over 36v as seen does add quite a bit more weight , depending where the weight is placed is the issue. When I carried my 23.2ah 48v battery over the rear wheel the rack was fitted as far forward and as low as I could get it over the wheel/mudguard to make handling much better, in use the handling was very good but it was sometimes a bit cumbersome when trying to manouvre off the bike.

I found the best use for 48v larger batteries was on much longer day rides of 100miles or so, one still had plenty of power for hills without hitting lvc.
 
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cyclebuddy

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Just weighed my Hailong 48v 20Ah 960Wh battery - 4.8kg
My wife's Wisper 36V 700 Wh (19.5 Ah ?) battery, I think has LG cells - 3.5 kg

I think getting a 20Ah battery that weighs 3.5 kg is not much extra weight (how much does your existing 374Wh battery weigh ?) for
1) a lot more range
2) higher voltages / more power on shorter journeys
I don't know what the existing batteries weigh, but labouring under the misapprehension that a larger capacity battery might weigh a notable amount more, I didn't really want to permanently saddle this bike with that extra weight for my shorter/sub-25-mile rides. But 25-mile rides are quite restrictive in Norfolk, which is why I'll cart my bike in my van to explore new areas and take both batteries.

But you raise a good point/benefit I hadn't considered: Maintaining a higher voltage level for longer even on those shorter runs. Sweet.
 
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sjpt

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Just weighed my Hailong 48v 20Ah 960Wh battery - 4.8kg
My wife's Wisper 36V 700 Wh (19.5 Ah ?) battery, I think has LG cells - 3.5 kg
So both of those give exactly same (and nicely rounded) value of 200Wh/kg, 5kg/kWh
 

Wisper Bikes

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There is another benefit of having a larger capacity battery, that is they will last longer than a lower Wh version. In our experience the larger the capacity the less expensive the battery in the medium to long term.

All the best, David
 

cyclebuddy

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Thanks everyone for your inputs... all comments appreciated.

The bike is in Norfolk (and I'm not at the moment), but next opportunity I have I'm going to link my bike back up to the Speeed App to re-check what the "current" (i.e. Amps) setting is and what that limit can be. IIRC, it had been set to 25A from factory, which the 26F cells aren't capable of, and I'd previously lowered that down to 15A as being more realistic.

If I up that to 18A, what would be a good cell to aim for? Or should I be even more ambitious?

Motor is a 350w 80Nm Bafang Maxdrive (i.e. renamed M400 in their current range), which IIRC Woosh also used in their short-lived Rambla bike too.
 

guerney

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IIRC, it had been set to 25A from factory, which the 26F cells aren't capable of, and I'd previously lowered that down to 15A as being more realistic.
A 19.2Ah battery pack made using those cells, will be capable of discharging higher current continuously, than the smaller 374Wh/10.4Ah ones you have now.

Today my battery weighs "3.345kg", says my rubbish digital lugagge scale... or it's aliens attempting communication via gravity waves. It's gotta be aliens :eek:


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Woosh

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Motor is a 350w 80Nm Bafang Maxdrive (i.e. renamed M400 in their current range), which IIRC Woosh also used in their short-lived Rambla bike too.
I would have continued with the Rambla if Bafang didn't put up their price when the worse of covid ended. Replacing the MaxDrive with the Ananda saves me $150 on each bike. I can keep the lid on the £1,500 price range.
 

Nealh

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Thanks everyone for your inputs... all comments appreciated.



If I up that to 18A, what would be a good cell to aim for? Or should I be even more ambitious?
.
Is this going to be a self build battery or a ready made one ?
 

guerney

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I do care about weight on this e-bike, for this purpose of general touring (it's the bike in my avatar).
I can't make out much from that tiny pic, but it does appear you need to gain some weight.

Ah, I stand corrected... 26F then,,, it's been 4 years since I opened one of the packs. 18650 pinkies though. I guess one battery of higher (double) capacity will logically be the best route to take.
If my seller had had these big "fuel tank" themed 38.5Ah batteries available, I probably would have bought one. Unleaded.

https://vi.aliexpress.com/i/1005004410433339.html

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WheezyRider

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For me it's a no brainer, just get a bigger battery and stop worrying about it. I never buy anything less than 15Ah and preferably 20Ah. The slight increase in weight is minor compared to the inconvenience of running out of power at a critical moment. Also, larger packs are stressed less and will have a longer life. Then there is the cold weather performance. A small pack is next to useless in cold weather.
 
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cyclebuddy

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A 19.2Ah battery pack made using those cells, will be capable of discharging higher current continuously, than the smaller 374Wh/10.4Ah ones you have now.
What current limit are you running your BBS at? I know you also have "keep current" at 100% which for me (having tried) is too much/wasteful, and kill these current batteries in no time. IIRC mine's about 40% (I need to check) but that's fine for me.
I would have continued with the Rambla if Bafang didn't put up their price
What battery capacity/cells/current settings did you use with the Bafang in your Rambla?
I can't make out much from that tiny pic, but it does appear you need to gain some weight.
That's Eric Morecambe. His home was beyond those fields. I suspect he's lost a lot more weight now he's under those fields.
Is this going to be a self build battery or a ready made one ?
I suspect a ready made one unless EBB are still making. I don't yet know what a
comfortable discharge rate will need to be.
For me it's a no brainer, just get a bigger battery and stop worrying about it. Then there is the cold weather performance. A small pack is next to useless in cold weather.
Yes, I'm now past that "I need a bigger one" hurdle. Cold weather has never been an issue since I don't ride (this bike) when it's that cold.
 
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Woosh

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What battery capacity/cells/current settings did you use with the Bafang in your Rambla?
the Rambla comes with 36V 14AH. The new bike with Ananda motor comes with 48V 14AH.
 

guerney

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What current limit are you running your BBS at? I know you also have "keep current" at 100% which for me (having tried) is too much/wasteful, and kill these current batteries in no time. IIRC mine's about 40% (I need to check) but that's fine for me.
It was 15A, but after @saneagle and his unhinged mates pursued me on foot uphill, to force me to install a hub motor, right there on this hill, I've increased it to 18A for next time. His other insane shrieky nutter mates in the car, I can't outrun, and I find this incredibly frustrating. However, it's now even stronger uphill. Where the heck does he find these screaming mad hub motor fanatics enthusiasts?




My intention was to only use levels 7 to 9 in emergencies, but the extra acceleration from standing starts at traffic lights and roundabouts is useful (no throttle), as well as enjoyable. Faster hill climbs too. I'd set it to 20A, but I need 2A for the lights I've soldered to the battery plus a bit of headroom, and the current BMS is only 22A. @Nealh said my battery is capable of about 25A continuous discharge. I doubt I'll replace the BMS, because it's a three year old battery - best not tax it too much approaching it's dotage.


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