Battery charging puzzle

saneagle

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OK, but this must be a function of the BMS allowing balancing to continue once a cell-group has reached 4.2v. The charger isn’t in control, the BMS is. Admittedly I’ve only had an evenings read of bms design though, but I still believe that the charge complete light only comes on when there is no demand from the bms.
This is approximately how it works. Imagine ten buckets, each 42cm high with some water in them. The levels are all slightly different. A tap (the charger) pours water into all buckets at exactly the same rate for each bucket until water spills over a rim and falls on the floor. As soon as water is on the floor, the tap is blocked to stop further spillage. When the tap is blocked, it turns itself down to a trickle, but the trickle can't go anywhere because it's still blocked.

Each bucket has a tiny hole drilled in the side at a height of 41.8cm, so all the time the water is above the hole, some will leak out and go down a drain (not on the floor). If you fill the bucket to the top, it will end up with water 41.8cm deep because of the hole. As soon as the level drops below 42cm, the tap is unblocked, but now it has adjusted itself to just a trickle, so a trickle of water goes into all buckets, which fills them very slowly, while all those ove 41.8cm deep are leaking down the drain.

There is enough pressure in the pipe to fill all buckets to 42cm, but as the buckets get close to that, there is no longer enough pressure to pump the water through the taps, so the flow slows right down when the buckets become full until it's just a trickle.

42cm is equivalent t0 4.2v and 41.8cm is equivalent to 4.18v.
 

Cisco-man

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That makes it clear Saneagle - thanks for clarifying. So leaving it plugged in after the charge complete light comes on DOES do some good, and won’t do any harm - as long as you keep an eye on it.
I saw your post on the power pack cases on ebay and have ordered one up to use these compromised batteries in - a good use I think!
 

AntonyC

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"The charger isn’t in control, the BMS is."

That's key, and it means if the BMS is working as it should you can't overcharge a battery.

A decent BMS provides Low Voltage Cutoff (LVC), HVC, overcurrent in/out and short cutoffs, as well as overtemperature, balance etc. functions. If too fast a charger is used the overcurrent protection should prevent it charging; if an overvoltage charger is used that's OK because the cell-pack pulls the voltage down until the BMS cuts off when it reaches HVC.

It's inadequate BMSes that can be a serious problem, not 'the wrong' charger or overcharging 'misuse'.
 
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saneagle

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So leaving it plugged in after the charge complete light comes on DOES do some good, and won’t do any harm - as long as you keep an eye on it.
Leaving it on charge only does good if the battery is out of balance. You can tell how balanced the battery is by measuring the voltage hot off the charger. the closer it is to the charger voltage, the more it's balanced. It's best not to leave the battery on charge with the green light if you don't have a reason to. Either way, it's nothing to panic about.
 
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Sturmey

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OK, but this must be a function of the BMS allowing balancing to continue once a cell-group has reached 4.2v. The charger isn’t in control, the BMS is. Admittedly I’ve only had an evenings read of bms design though, but I still believe that the charge complete light only comes on when there is no demand from the bms.
Under normal circumstances and with good cells in balance etc, the BMS I think has more or less nothing to do except in a fault situation . The battery charger bring up the voltage and as it approaches 42 volts (36v battery) the current starts to reduce as the battery voltage equalized with the charger. The charger green light is normally set to come on at some predetermined current as its reducing e.g .02C . This normally happens irrespective of whether there is a BMS fitted or not to the battery. ( I ran a battery without a BMS while awaiting a slow delivery for same).
 
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AntonyC

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It's best not to leave the battery on charge with the green light if you don't have a reason to. Either way, it's nothing to panic about.
That's certainly prudent. Proper storage and use affect safety but charging not so much (unless the BMS is cr*p). There's a pressing need to understand charging well because inept and harmful legislation is entering the pipeline based on the media's ignorance about it.
 
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Nealh

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Remember though that balancing is very slow approx. 100ma rate and voltages quite close.
 

Cisco-man

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I guess I’ve been a drone in lots of people’s ears regarding this thread! I’ve always been rather pedantic in how I go about things.
Now I understand a lot more I shall make note of the achieved voltage (rested briefly) when I charge, to then decide if I let it sit on the charger a little longer if it’s sitting in (say) the 41v ish range, in the hope of improving the pack balance.
 

saneagle

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I just unplugged my charger. I put the battery on charge at about 17:00 yesterday and forgot about it. That's what I always do. One time, it was left on for a week!
 

Cisco-man

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I just unplugged my charger. I put the battery on charge at about 17:00 yesterday and forgot about it. That's what I always do. One time, it was left on for a week!
Ah, But now I know that with a good quality BMS I have nothing much to fear if I do the same!

I do use a 240v countdown timer though. At c. £15 from eBay, I can set charging times of 15, 30, 45 minutes, or 1h, 2h, 3h, etc. and forget about it too!
 

saneagle

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Ah, But now I know that with a good quality BMS I have nothing much to fear if I do the same!

I do use a 240v countdown timer though. At c. £15 from eBay, I can set charging times of 15, 30, 45 minutes, or 1h, 2h, 3h, etc. and forget about it too!
I should get one of those, but I can't be bothered.
 

sjpt

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I do use a 240v countdown timer though. At c. £15 from eBay, I can set charging times of 15, 30, 45 minutes, or 1h, 2h, 3h, etc. and forget about it too!
I've got some Tapo smart plugs (thanks to Ovo). These can act as a countdown timer, but also give interesting information about the charge rate. (Only about input to the charger, but still very informative.) To take full advantage would need a little more work. Shame they don't have a PC client; they have APIs I might look at again.
 
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