Battery charging, how often

[Gavin]

EV battery fires are not a serious problem, see this link.

And there were over 50,000 home powerwalls already installed by July 2019 using these Tesla car batteries in solar panel and grid installations with no news about fires.

Just as with every new technology, there's far too much scaremongering on this whole subject, the media stirring it up as usual.
.

The thing about EV fires (just like shark attacks) is they grab headlines.

And just like shark attacks, anyone capable of doing even the most basic risk assessment will realise that whilst the severity of such an incident might be high, the likelihood of it happening is miniscule therefore the overall risk is low.

However rational risk assessments don't sell newspapers or click bait, which is why the sensational headlines prevail....

 

[Andy-Mat]

I hope you are right

Does anyone know why the Nissan Leaf has a better record than Tesla? Did Tesla cut corners in the early days in the rush to get a product to the market?

The problem is when one does catch fire, what is the best way to put it out?

Also, for us e-bikers, who might have packs made of cells of unknown origin, what is the best procedure for dealing with a pack fire, should the worst happen?

Good point.
I myself only trust Panasonic cells, for such reasons.
The major problems with some e-cars is that the spontaneous combustion of batteries in some, the fire happens so rapidly, the driverPassengers, for one reason or another, do not always manage to get out safely.
When the number of e-cars is compared to the number of IC cars, I personally find it still a bit worrying.....
Andy

 

[Gavin]

the driverPassengers, for one reason or another, do not always manage to get out safely.

Give us facts @Andy-Mat, not opinion.

How many deaths in an EV fire per mile driven compared to number of deaths in IC cars per mile driven.

Without facts your posts are just sensationalist.

Do you work for the Daily Mail?!

 

[Andy-Mat]

EV battery fires are not a serious problem, see this link.

And there were over 50,000 home powerwalls already installed by July 2019 using these Tesla car batteries in solar panel and grid installations with no news about fires.

Just as with every new technology, there's far too much scaremongering on this whole subject, the media stirring it up as usual.
.

But the powerwalls seldom get into crashes on the motorway, which is the primary reason for e-car batteries to catch fire, an accident, maybe at high speed!
If the battery gets ruptured in some manner, they can get nasty. Fast!
I will probably be able to avoid ever buying one at my age, and I still prefer Diesel, for fire safety reasons.
Andy

 

[Andy-Mat]

Give us facts @Andy-Mat, not opinion.

How many deaths in an EV fire per mile driven compared to number of deaths in IC cars per mile driven.

Without facts your posts are just sensationalist.

Do you work for the Daily Mail?!

I have to laugh at your wish for facts, that is really funny, on a forum where facts are almost never ever put in a topic by anyone.....
And if the facts are SO important to you, I would expect you to tell me them, with supporting web links proving you are correct.
You have got it as the Londoners say, "A*se about Face".
Can you not let us all know first?
Thanks in advance.
Andy

 

[flecc]

Does anyone know why the Nissan Leaf has a better record than Tesla? Did Tesla cut corners in the early days in the rush to get a product to the market?

Tesla originally used proprietary 18640 cells, later 22700 cells, and these are all high density cells like those in our e-bikes. They also used large numbers of them, 6200 cells in one model. As we know, they can catch fire when they suffer too much stress, especially if the manufacturing standards are too low, and thousands of chances for a cell to fail with that many.

To make matters worse, Tesla pushed the performance element to get the best acceleration, top speed and range.

Now they specify and make their own cells so hopefully with all their experience all will be well now.

Nissan's approach was very different from the outset. They use much smaller numbers of specially constructed low density large cells which don't get stressed at any time, especially since any car spends so little time at maximum performance. Their charging regime is much more gentle too, but despite these their performance is more than ample, 7.9 seconds 0 to 62 on my family car for example, near hot hatch performance

Hence their very long lived batteries, I'll be dead long before I ever need to change mine.

The problem is when one does catch fire, what is the best way to put it out?

Also, for us e-bikers, who might have packs made of cells of unknown origin, what is the best procedure for dealing with a pack fire, should the worst happen?

Either leave it to the fire brigade if suitable or lob it into water. Some while ago I built a couple of multi cell packs and drove them to destruction and fire as an experiment, then chucked them in water to cool off with no problems.
.

 

[Gavin]

I have to laugh at your wish for facts, that is really funny, on a forum where facts are almost never ever put in a topic by anyone.....
And if the facts are SO important to you, I would expect you to tell me them, with supporting web links proving you are correct.
You have got it as the Londoners say, "A*se about Face".
Can you not let us all know first?
Thanks in advance.
Andy

I don't have any skin in this game Andy, I'm an observer. I joined this forum to learn about ebikes and I'm pleased to say I've learned a huge amount from some very knowledgeable people on here.

However all I've learned from you is that you like to type a lot....

 

[flecc]

But the powerwalls seldom get into crashes on the motorway,

Exactly, so the lithium powerwalls are very safe.

the primary reason for e-car batteries to catch fire, an accident, maybe at high speed!

But as I've pointed out before, with the batteries underslung amidships now and crumple zones front and rear, this is largely theory only now.

I will probably be able to avoid ever buying one at my age, and I still prefer Diesel, for fire safety reasons.

You are missing a treat, at least book a couple of test drives to see the extent of what you are missing. Or hopefully there'll be some with the hire companies before too long for you to try for a day or two.
.

 

[flecc]

I have been on the receiving end of some very rude comments, far too many times here, perhaps if they had followed yours and someone else's "new advice", things might have developed in a different manner....
And what I said was far less rude than some others here have said....
Andy

You've brought all of it on yourself Andy, remember your appalling first response to one of my posts when you first joined.

You accused me of being young and ignorant, conned by politicians and knowing nothing about the subject, which was e-cars.

You could not have been more wrong. I was older than you, ex motor trade and industry and far more in depth experienced and knowledgable on the subject.

Your whole attitude of superiority, your endless verbosity and aggressive response to disagreement all invite adverse reactions, especially when you frequently don't know the subject you are responding on. Your inclusion of snide remarks about other's advice hardly helps.
.

 

[WheezyRider]

Tesla originally used proprietary 18640 cells, later 22700 cells, and these are all high density cells like those in our e-bikes. They also used large numbers of them, 6200 cells in one model. As we know, they can catch fire when they suffer too much stress, especially if the manufacturing standards are too low, and thousands of chances for a cell to fail with that many.

To make matters worse, Tesla pushed the performance element to get the best acceleration, top speed and range.

Now they specify and make their own cells so hopefully with all their experience all will be well now.

Nissan's approach was very different from the outset. They use much smaller numbers of specially constructed low density large cells which don't get stressed at any time, especially since any car spends so little time at maximum performance. Their charging regime is much more gentle too, but despite these their performance is more than ample, 7.9 seconds 0 to 62 on my family car for example, near hot hatch performance

Hence their very long lived batteries, I'll be dead long before I ever need to change mine.



Either leave it to the fire brigade if suitable or lob it into water. Some while ago I built a couple of multi cell packs and drove them to destruction and fire as an experiment, then chucked them in water to cool off with no problems.
.

That explains a lot. Nissan taking the slow but steady route of careful development, and not overstressing their cells, while Tesla seem to have taken a more cavalier approach.

I still feel a bit apprehensive about having a big bank of ex Tesla cells in a power wall in a house. If it starts burning, it's a nightmare to put out, even if the cause of the fire is not due to the batteries themselves. I think I'd want them in a shed at the bottom of the garden

 

[flecc]

That explains a lot. Nissan taking the slow but steady route of careful development, and not overstressing their cells, while Tesla seem to have taken a more cavalier approach.

Elon Musk is a risk taker in the "Nothing ventured, nothing gained " mould. That's why his reusable commercial spaceship is now restocking the international space station for NASA and is ready to take new crews there.

Of course ok when it's his risk, not so nice when it's the customer's

I still feel a bit apprehensive about having a big bank of ex Tesla cells in a power wall in a house. If it starts burning, it's a nightmare to put out, even if the cause of the fire is not due to the batteries themselves. I think I'd want them in a shed at the bottom of the garden

I'd be happy to have a three powerwall bank able to supply a sizeable home over a 48 hour power cut. None have ever caught fire, possibly because they aren't used to hurtle a near two ton car from 0 to 62 in 2.9 seconds as the top model S can do.
.

 

[Gavin]

Elon Musk is a risk taker in the "Nothing ventured, nothing gained " mould. That's why his reusable commercial spaceship is now restocking the international space station for NASA and is ready to take new crews there.

Of course ok when it's his risk, not so nice when it's the customer's



I'd be happy to have a three powerwall bank able to supply a sizeable home over a 48 hour power cut. None have ever caught fire, possibly because they aren't used to hurtle a near two ton car from 0 to 62 in 2.9 seconds as the top model S can do.
.

Again, going back to my earlier point about assessing risk rationally- most people (apart from Flecc) have gas in their homes, petrol in their garage and Li-On batteries in their pockets.

 

[Gringo]

Good and very important question, that is apparently not fully understood by many on the e-bike scene IMO, which is why I would recommend reading at the online "Battery University", as they seldom get things wrong!

Charging Lithium-Ion Batteries

Review simple guidelines for charging Lithium-based batteries and prolong battery life such as; a portable device should be turned off while charging and more.

batteryuniversity.com

There are other good sources, but that is a reasonable starting point.
If you treat your batteries well, they will give a very long and extended service life.
Too many people only get 2 to 3 years (but they accept that!), some even less, simply through ignorance.....
To get the best life IMHO, (this will cause some here to loudly disagree!) you do need to fully or almost fully discharge before recharging, and then charge back up to close to full or full,.
The BMS in the battery sets the lower limit of available charge.
And if you are riding a lot, the only way to do that in my view, is to own two batteries (one can be smaller and cheaper in most cases), and when the capacity of the one in use is below that needed for the rest of the ride, either pedal a lot, or swap the battery out for a full one, right where you are.
But that is a personal choice, either way.
Sadly, I am told (and I believe them!), swapping a battery while "on the road", is not quite so easy with some models of E-Bikes.
Never leave a charger connected to a battery, once full charge is reached, NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE ELSE TELLS YOU DIFFERENTLY, that is the reason so many batteries have very shortened lives......
Only some VERY expensive chargers FULLY remove power from the battery, BUT THEY ALL RESTART CHARGING AGAIN IF THE BATTERY VOLTAGE DROPS BELOW A CERTAIN LEVEL!
My saying this here, will probably cause some "nay sayers" to start posting the opposite, simply do not believe them!
Even if your charger is one that removes all power to the battery (a green charge LED is NOT an indication of this as some believe!), it needs a proper set up testing system to prove that either way, which as good as no one has at their disposal!
Its ALWAYS the safest option, if you are not 200% sure, is to completely remove mains from the charger when the battery is full, or close to....
I myself use a simple cheap 24 hour timer like this one:-
View attachment 36605
which has a simple internal modification to it, that when it switches off the mains to the charger, after the time has I have set runs out, it actually also switches "itself" off as well.
Just one wire to the tiny synchronous motor inside, needs to moved from the mains plug" power in" (best is the wire that has the phase on it, not the neutral), to the output socket phase connection. There should be a 13 amp fuse in a UK timer, that is the phase "side".
Ones with an LCD or those that time for 7 days, will not usually work correctly in this application
If you are not "au fait" with MAINS voltage wiring, get an electrician with a soldering iron to do this, its at most a 5 minute job IF you picked a timer with normal screws holding it together, not safety screws, that is! They need special tools.
You just need to learn roughly how long a full charge is for your Battery/Charger combination, and then set the timer to say 10-15 minutes less, so that it is generally still charging when the mains is removed, or shortly after, the charge LED goes green.
I use the midnight position as 0 and say set it to 04:00, for a 4 hour charge.....your battery may need more or less time, depending upon its capacity and the "speed" of the charger.
Fast chargers also reduce the life span of the battery, albeit slowly, in comparison to a "slow/normal" charger.
On safety, these batteries if treated badly in some way, can possibly catch fire, and usually the only way to put it out completely, is to throw the whole bike in a small pond or similar, for around an hour at least.
If that is not possible, and you are unable to safely remove the burning battery in a tub of water,, you will need to say use a garden hose to keep the battery cooled as far as possibly to keep the fire "small", but it will only actually stop burning when all combustible components are used up.
This may take a hour or so, but guessing only, it may take even longer.....I have never had "the pleasure!"
Never let children or amateurs (wives!) touch your batteries or charger for any reason whatsoever.
Never charge where a fire may endanger life or property.
Recommended is to charge outside, away from strong sunlight, as the battery gets slightly warm from charging alone, and strong sunlight may warm it too much, further reducing the working life unnecessarily.
I do not 100% know what this Guy on the following video was actually doing wrong, but as you can see, he was probably doing something bad with two batteries (one can be seen on the rear carrier with a mess of wiring), and bottle type battery on the front down tube.
Maybe he got the polarity wrong, or they were just too vastly different in voltage/charge, but he also apparently did not use a big fuse somewhere as a safety device, I really don't know for certain (I don't think even the bike owner knows for certain !):-

Your Battery, if used properly and treated carefully with respect, then this will never ever happen to you!
Regards and I wish you and your bike batteries a long, safe and useful life together!
Remember, never believe anything from anyone, unless the same information can be gleaned from a reputable online source, or other reputable documentation....Do a lot of reading and be careful!
Andy
PS. I almost forgot (how could I?), that some of the "Nay-Sayers" I previously mentioned, will shortly start "picking" at anything that I have written here is wrong!
I always stay on the "safe side", but they simply want to start an argument......any argument is their idea of FUN!
It's your final choice who and what to believe on this forum of course, but a lack of valid links supporting their theories, is often a useful indication of invalidity and guesswork, which might help you further to decide what to believe!View attachment 36605

I've been using a Ansmann AES1 countdown timer for over a decade, once it reaches the end of the chosen time period it cuts ALL power to anything that’s plugged into it.
It’s an off the shelf device that requires no modification.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcSZoiDP0ddDi7Y_Oya2yS7QFa1bg9PTV5cZhltJxzMgsIiLIfJCnVp8rkJwUHLnt2MRiFjvM-3eSg&usqp=CAc

I've been using a Ansmann AES1 countdown timer for over a decade, once it reaches the end of the chosen time period it cuts ALL power to anything that’s plugged into it.
It’s an off the shelf device that requires no modification.
PS I haven’t read all of the posts, only the first page.

 

[Andy-Mat]

I don't have any skin in this game Andy, I'm an observer. I joined this forum to learn about ebikes and I'm pleased to say I've learned a huge amount from some very knowledgeable people on here.

However all I've learned from you is that you like to type a lot....

An "observer" demanding facts.......
Ludicrous!

 

[joelectric]

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcSZoiDP0ddDi7Y_Oya2yS7QFa1bg9PTV5cZhltJxzMgsIiLIfJCnVp8rkJwUHLnt2MRiFjvM-3eSg&usqp=CAc

I've been using a Ansmann AES1 countdown timer for over a decade, once it reaches the end of the chosen time period it cuts ALL power to anything that’s plugged into it.
It’s an off the shelf device that requires no modification.
PS I haven’t read all of the posts, only the first page.

Just about to order one from amazon, I'm forever forgetting to switch mine off, cheers for that.

 

[Andy-Mat]

Exactly, so the lithium powerwalls are very safe.



But as I've pointed out before, with the batteries underslung amidships now and crumple zones front and rear, this is largely theory only now.



You are missing a treat, at least book a couple of test drives to see the extent of what you are missing. Or hopefully there'll be some with the hire companies before too long for you to try for a day or two.
.

I liked the sheer power and acceleration of the ones I have tried/ been driven in, very impressive.
Many modern IC powered cars, even really fast ones, have real problems in keeping up!
But apparently, at the end of the day, after 5-10 years of use, the battery will probably need to be replaced, and the projections I have seen is that it will cost more than the car is worth (in a running condition of course), for a replacement battery.
My thoughts are that the current electric cars are for people with a lot of money, who simply don't care what it costs.
I do find some of the PI Hybrids to be interesting, as I could drive back to the UK when going on holiday, without having to make two charging stops on the way. Now that is starting to get practical.....
And one should not forget that the battery size (size of the fire) in a hybrid, is generally about 20% of the size of a true electric car.
But I am still not interested.....
In my life, I have seen how companies use the public in general, as test persons, helping them develope a product, at a cost to the public, not them of course!
There are a few newer batteries in developement, that somehow are apparently, far less inflammable, if you believe the hype.....
I will wait up for one of the newer, so called "safer", batteries, or not, as the case may be!
I agree with you that a battery, properly protected, is far less likely to be a problem, something that maybe Tesla forgot! Just as did BMW with their inflammable 5 Series IC cars in the 1980 -1990s, they were simply awful.....(I forget the exact model years!)
By the way, I had BMWs in the 1980s, as company cars. they are fine, but the prices charged for everything were far too high for me privately, so we had really good Japanese and Volvos for private use. In Germany, many people say, you have to own a BMW ONCE, as ONCE is enough! I know a quite long list of friends here that would agree with that fully!
regards
Andy

 

[WheezyRider]

Elon Musk is a risk taker in the "Nothing ventured, nothing gained " mould. That's why his reusable commercial spaceship is now restocking the international space station for NASA and is ready to take new crews there.

Of course ok when it's his risk, not so nice when it's the customer's



I'd be happy to have a three powerwall bank able to supply a sizeable home over a 48 hour power cut. None have ever caught fire, possibly because they aren't used to hurtle a near two ton car from 0 to 62 in 2.9 seconds as the top model S can do.
.

Elon Musk is someone I don't think much of, way too arrogant for his own good.

I think it's still something to bear in mind with power walls, how dangerous they can be. They should be safer than in a car and will not be driven so hard, but houses catch fire for other reasons too, and once these cells are ignited, they are a nightmare to put out.

It's one thing to have a little power bank or mobile phone go up, but can you imagine a terraced street all fitted with power walls? If one house catches fire, how easy will it be to prevent one house from burning down the whole street?

I imagine a there will be some serious house fires, some people will die and then the legislation will catch up and you will have to inform Building Control if you want to install one and building regs will be updated etc. Maybe this has been done already? But I am sceptical, knowing how these thing are usually so far behind technological development.

I hope LiFePO cells can solve this problem and they get adopted on a large scale.

 

[John F]

Elon Musk is someone I don't think much of, way too arrogant for his own good.

I think it's still something to bear in mind with power walls, how dangerous they can be. They should be safer than in a car and will not be driven so hard, but houses catch fire for other reasons too, and once these cells are ignited, they are a nightmare to put out.

It's one thing to have a little power bank or mobile phone go up, but can you imagine a terraced street all fitted with power walls? If one house catches fire, how easy will it be to prevent one house from burning down the whole street?

I imagine a there will be some serious house fires, some people will die and then the legislation will catch up and you will have to inform Building Control if you want to install one and building regs will be updated etc. Maybe this has been done already? But I am sceptical, knowing how these thing are usually so far behind technological development.

I hope LiFePO cells can solve this problem and they get adopted on a large scale.

I'm curious to know how the Boeing &87 Dreamliner battery fire issue fits into this debate. What kind of cells did they use (Leaf or Tesla type or some other kind?) From memory all they did after extensive research into the problem was to just put the battery in a box!

 

[joelectric]

Elon Musk is someone I don't think much of, way too arrogant for his own good.

I think it's still something to bear in mind with power walls, how dangerous they can be. They should be safer than in a car and will not be driven so hard, but houses catch fire for other reasons too, and once these cells are ignited, they are a nightmare to put out.

It's one thing to have a little power bank or mobile phone go up, but can you imagine a terraced street all fitted with power walls? If one house catches fire, how easy will it be to prevent one house from burning down the whole street?

I imagine a there will be some serious house fires, some people will die and then the legislation will catch up and you will have to inform Building Control if you want to install one and building regs will be updated etc. Maybe this has been done already? But I am sceptical, knowing how these thing are usually so far behind technological development.

I hope LiFePO cells can solve this problem and they get adopted on a large scale.

He is arrogant, however he genuinely cares for the environment and his suborn 'can do' attitude is driving forward the technology in cars , space travel and above all artificial intelligence.
He will go down in history along with the likes of Einstein, watt, bell etc
The man is an unlikable genius.

 

[WheezyRider]

He is arrogant, however he genuinely cares for the environment and his suborn 'can do' attitude is driving forward the technology in cars , space travel and above all artificial intelligence.
He will go down in history along with the likes of Einstein, watt, bell etc
The man is an unlikable genius.

IMO, he's not a genius, just a guy with a lot of money and an over inflated opinion of himself.