Help! Batteries.

Owzmo

Finding my (electric) wheels
Sep 18, 2017
10
4
England
So,

I'm about to order a conversion kit, and obviously - I need a battery. I'm really curious as to if anyone can give some recommendations as to what types of batteries to buy. They're really expensive and I don't just want to buy the first one I see. The one I need would be 48 volts, with a decent Ah, and the motor I'd be using will eat 1kW of power. Batteries are the only thing putting me off at the moment. So, any recommendations would be really appreciated.

Thanks!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rustienuts

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
9,822
3,993
Basildon
I guess you want to get one of those 1000w direct drive kits, or is it a BBSHD? If the former, it's not too late to change your mind. In either case, you want a battery that's listed as having a rating of at least 40 amps. Have a look at what Eclipse Bikes offer in the UK.
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,845
5,786
The European Union

Owzmo

Finding my (electric) wheels
Sep 18, 2017
10
4
England
I guess you want to get one of those 1000w direct drive kits, or is it a BBSHD? If the former, it's not too late to change your mind. In either case, you want a battery that's listed as having a rating of at least 40 amps. Have a look at what Eclipse Bikes offer in the UK.
Yeah, it's a direct drive kit. I'm thinking about buying a bunch of 18650 cells and just making my own battery.
 

KirstinS

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 5, 2011
3,224
899
Brighton
Yeah, it's a direct drive kit. I'm thinking about buying a bunch of 18650 cells and just making my own battery.
Those dd hubs do eat power. You'll need really good cells, spot welder , quality bms and quality AWG wire

It always seems to.me that what you savve on the kit being relatively cheap you lose more by the battery having to be very high spec (and therefore pricey) to work
 

Owzmo

Finding my (electric) wheels
Sep 18, 2017
10
4
England
Yeah, you're certainly not wrong about what you save you spend on the battery. I was thinking if I made my own cell it would be easier to upgrade/fix. I would just love to have a new hobby that I could spend hours in.
 

KirstinS

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 5, 2011
3,224
899
Brighton
Yeah, you're certainly not wrong about what you save you spend on the battery. I was thinking if I made my own cell it would be easier to upgrade/fix. I would just love to have a new hobby that I could spend hours in.
Well I learnt a huge amount by buidling packs . There are hours to spend that's for sure :)
 
  • :D
Reactions: Owzmo

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
9,822
3,993
Basildon
Building a battery is a brilliant learning experience, but it certainly won't be cheaper than buying a ready-made one. There's an awful lot of stuff you need, not just the cells.
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,845
5,786
The European Union
Building a battery is a brilliant learning experience, but it certainly won't be cheaper than buying a ready-made one. There's an awful lot of stuff you need, not just the cells.
That depends, I'm at 360€, shipping included, for a >15 Ah 12S battery. Including Welder and LiPo to make it work (I didn't have one on hand that size). If you count on building another battery (I am) and you divide the price of the welder by the number of batteries it can be cheaper.

I could have bought a softpack 13S battery for 346€ + shipping that was near my spec but as you say it is a learning experience too. Priceless...
 
  • Agree
Reactions: wheeliepete

Owzmo

Finding my (electric) wheels
Sep 18, 2017
10
4
England
That depends, I'm at 360€, shipping included, for a >15 Ah 12S battery. Including Welder and LiPo to make it work (I didn't have one on hand that size). If you count on building another battery (I am) and you divide the price of the welder by the number of batteries it can be cheaper.

I could have bought a softpack 13S battery for 346€ + shipping that was near my spec but as you say it is a learning experience too. Priceless...
Is the Welder the only tool you bought ( Aside from batteries, BMS, wires etc. ) to but the battery together? Have you bought a power supply too? Or voltage meters etc.
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,845
5,786
The European Union
The welder is the miniA spot welder from Korea, it is powered by a high discharge 3S LiPo pack. I had a lot of other stuff on hand already.

I will document the battery in my build thread in due course. It isn't an orthodox battery, I will take some flack...
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Owzmo

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
9,822
3,993
Basildon
You need a spot-welder, large soldering iron, small soldering iron, solder, multi-meter, cells, nickel strips, insulating washers, insulation sheet, hot glue gun and glue sticks, 13g silicone wire for the power leads, thinner wire for the charge socket, heat-shrink sleeve in various sizes, hot air gun to shrink it, switch, BMS, charge socket and charger.

It isn't just a case of welding the strips onto the cells. You have to figure out settings and how to weld through more than one layer. Slotted nickel is best, but if you can't get that in the right size or shape, you need a Dremmel and carbide disc to slot the nickel yourself.

When you've done all that, you'll need a case to put it in. A proprietary case is relatively expensive. A home made one can look terrible if you don't have the skills to produce something nice. Plywood will need gluing, sanding, sealing and painting. GRP will require wooden patterns and all the tools to make them, release agents and the GRP stuff.

While you're making the battery, you cut your hands on the nickel and you scare yourself to death every time you drop something metal, like a piece of nickel strip, on the half-built battery and sparks start flying and the strip goes red hot so you can't get it off, then you have to figure out how to unweld all the damaged strips, then you need a single cell charger to get the drained cells back to the same voltage as the other ones before you can weld them up again. Or when you've nearly finished the battery, an edge of one of the nickel strips nicks through the heat-shrink cell covering and shorts it out. The whole thing starts smoking while you try to figure out what to do with it.

This is what I mean by "learning experience". It's not so bad when you've made a few; however, I guarantee that you'll learn some lessons along the way.

Compare all that with a professionally finished battery that comes by post with the charger, and all you have to do is screw it to the frame.
 
Last edited:

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,845
5,786
The European Union
Oh my! If I had that level of manual ability I would stay well away from anything electrical...

You can still build batteries that way I guess but you can also build one from components that make your life way easier:

- cell holders, a glue gun is so 20th century
- pre-cut nickel strips (with slots) that fit cell holders
- battery cases, you can buy an empty Hl box if that is your thing or an empty 8P13S battery case with cell holders and pre-cut nickel and a BMS adapted to it. A bit of Kapton tape and some wire plus 108 cells from nkon would have you an 18.4 Ah, 30 Amp peak discharge, 48v battery for under 300€.
- since I met epoxy GRP is a long forgotten memory... Aircraft ply, carbon fibre and epoxy would be my weapon of choice for a bespoke battery box.

Learning experience for me is lots of research on the internet - the expert advice on endless sphere for example. One can also learn from the mistakes that others have made, tiny bits of nickel strip welded in multiple layers? No thank you very much!
 

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
9,822
3,993
Basildon
You need the glue gun to fix the sense wires in place so that they won't chafe in use. Chafed sense wires = instant fire! You could use Kapton tape or even gaffa tape, or other methods, but then you need to add them to the list of additional costs or tools.
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
20,918
8,533
61
West Sx RH
I lay my sense wires on a strip of Glassfibre tape and them another strip on top, hot glue doesn't rate high up on my list.
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,845
5,786
The European Union
OK so I have almost finished my first "learning experience" battery.

I did nick my finger on a nickel strip Lee had slipped into the welder packaging. I don't know if I should write this down as "vfr400 was correct" or "beware of free gifts from Asian friends"... :rolleyes:
 

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
9,822
3,993
Basildon
I should have added Elastoplasts and antiseptic cream to the list for the cuts and burns that you get, but I never bother with those things myself. I just use gaffa tape if it's that bad.