Basic question with hopefully a simple answer

[snafu]

I was recently speaking with someone about upgrading my Vengeance. I had planned on fitting a more powerful conversion kit to it but if I'm honest I like simply riding a bicycle and pedalling with minimal effort. I'm happy (Not ecstatic) with it's 250w and would prefer to stay within the law.

What I want is more range. I like to roam about when on holiday planning trips to last a whole day and currently am conscious of needing to plan around a 30m max loop. (Range anxiety is a terrible thing).... I was considering one of the Yose Power 36v 20ah batteries and simply wiring it into the existing controller.

36V20Ah/48V15Ah Li-ion E-Bike Battery Electric Bicycle

Original Cell 36V20Ah/48V15Ah Li-ion Battery Electric Bicycle New Black DIY 1.Technical DataVoltage: 36V / 48VCapacity: 20Ah / 15AhEnergy: 740Wh / 721WhWeight(with holder): ca. 4.1kg / 4.0kgCell: High Power 18650Cycle Life(time): 1000+Max Current: 30AProtect Current: 60AEnd Voltage: 28V /...

yosepower.com

I thought as long as I kept the same voltage all would be well with the world and my "O level" physics seemed to back that up.

But after speaking with someone who used lots of big words and totally confused me I am wondering if this is not really a good idea. I had assumed that the voltage was the critical parameter in all of this? The 20ah bit was simply the capacity. (So an obvious improvement over the 8.8 AH battery supplied with the bike from Halfords).

So does my simplistic logic trump his in depth physics lesson?

Am I right or am I missing something here? I don't understand why he seemed to think a 20AH battery running at 36V would destroy my controller any more than am 8.8AH battery running at 36V.

Enquiring minds need to know.

Thanks in advance

TTFN
John.

 

[peter.c]

Sorry if this not what you want to hear ,If you have a off the peg as standard from halfords your plan is harder than you think , as the standard set up is tied to the battery and controller all talk [ this is covered multiple times on several threads] so its swap the lot display battery and controller or sell your bike and convert to get what you want yose do a complete wheel kit just add the battery

 

[sjpt]

Some bikes have complicated systems where the battery has to hand-shake with the controller and motor. That tends to mean that you can't replace the battery with a generic one, and that replacements are much more expensive than a generic one of the same capacity. I think that the Vengeance has such a system (from Suntour).

You can sometimes get them recelled to a bigger capacity at a lower price than a new big one,

eBike Batteries

ebikebatteries.co.uk

 

[Scorpio]

Systems need at least the display and the controller to talk to each other, one of these 36V systems will work with any capacity 36V battery. Yose are in this category.
Other systems need the display, controller and battery to communicate with each other so it's more difficult to fit an alternative battery.
I'm not sure what system is on your Vengance, so not sure how difficult it would be fit a different battery but I'd expect one of the more experienced folk here to let you know soon.

Late edit: as explained ^ by @sjpt while I was typing. Oops !

 

[snafu]

Ah ok, Well that's obviously disappointing, and my basic electrical knowledge it failing me somewhat. I figured the Controller / Display would only care about the voltage and would display the capacity left accordingly based on the voltage. Likewise the controller would just take whatever it needed (Up to its limits). It's a formula I've adopted with my electric toy planes and had always served me well up to this point.

Perhaps I simply need to go with a different controller and display to match the battery from Yose Power. ( I would need to find an alternative controller mount anyway and I'm happy to grab my soldering Iron if I know what to connect).

I'm happy with the bike, I know they get a lot of bad press but that's mainly due to people thinking they are something they are not. Mine has been taken well past it's design limits (and my ability) a few times but not broke anything yet. (Other than my Ego).

I have 2 of them, both older 2018 models, The 2nd bought for a few weeks ago, cost next to nothing as a none runner bike. (All paperwork charger and keys provided). Easy fix, although the obvious lack of any maintenance during its short life beggared belief, replacing brake pads, cables, discs, tyres and finally finding the electrical fault kept me off the street for a few weeks at least.

Thanks guys, with the 2nd bike I at least have a back up battery so my available range has hopefully gone up somewhat.

But also having a spare means I can plan to haul my 64 year old less than athletic body for a few extra miles so I'll have a look at what is available.

TTFN
John

 

[Deleted member 33385]

Ah ok, Well that's obviously disappointing, and my basic electrical knowledge it failing me somewhat. I figured the Controller / Display would only care about the voltage and would display the capacity left accordingly based on the voltage. Likewise the controller would just take whatever it needed (Up to its limits). It's a formula I've adopted with my electric toy planes and had always served me well up to this point.

Perhaps I simply need to go with a different controller and display to match the battery from Yose Power. ( I would need to find an alternative controller mount anyway and I'm happy to grab my soldering Iron if I know what to connect).

I'm happy with the bike, I know they get a lot of bad press but that's mainly due to people thinking they are something they are not. Mine has been taken well past it's design limits (and my ability) a few times but not broke anything yet. (Other than my Ego).

I have 2 of them, both older 2018 models, The 2nd bought for a few weeks ago, cost next to nothing as a none runner bike. (All paperwork charger and keys provided). Easy fix, although the obvious lack of any maintenance during its short life beggared belief, replacing brake pads, cables, discs, tyres and finally finding the electrical fault kept me off the street for a few weeks at least.

Thanks guys, with the 2nd bike I at least have a back up battery so my available range has hopefully gone up somewhat.

But also having a spare means I can plan to haul my 64 year old less than athletic body for a few extra miles so I'll have a look at what is available.

TTFN
John

Aaarrrgggh this is precisely why I bought a kit! I considered buying two off the shelf cheapo ebikes for the same price as my Bafang, so I could use the second one for parts... but the more I looked into sourcing spares, the clearer it became that a kit (for me at least) was the answer. These ebike manufacturers seem to be using the car manufacturer's playbook ie things keep having to talk to each other, and set in software any time you replace things, so they can resume their conversation. Give me a 80's Ford Cortina or old Land Rover anytime, so I go to a scrapheap to replace a front light housing instead of paying an engineer to set the damn thing in software before it can switch on without beeping an error on the dash forever... software which also takes a percentage of his earnings (sometimes this is actually the case), if the engineer wants it regularly updated and remaining useful.

 

[vfr400]

There's still a solution for you to get what you want. A couple of guys on the forum have replaced their controllers, which work with any battery. You can keep the motor, but you get rid of everything else and install a new LCD, normal pedal sensor and throttle. You have the option of going to a higher power controller (17A or 20A), which will give you more power and be ideal if you keep to the 15.5 mph limit, or you can go up to 48v, which is better if you want to go over 20 mph. You can set your own speed limit with the new controller. All these options are legal as long as you stick to the 15.5 mph limit. If you're happy with the power you have now, there's a 15A version of the 36v controller too.

To fit the new controller, you have to do a bit of soldering and simple wiring, mainly to the motor cable.

Cost for the new controller, LCD, PAS and throttle is about £70 to £80.

 

[snafu]

Thanks Guys,
Easy to see how people get into difficulty not asking the right questions. I see so many "Remove speed limit, Make it go faster" posts elsewhere on other forums. If I could average 15 mph for the duration of my trips I would be a happy bunny. The "Six Pack" became a Watney's Party 7 a long time ago.

So, I can basically keep the hub motor and change everything else. That's fine by me, I guess If I could find a geared hub motor rated 250W I might able to get 350W performance and still stay on the right side of the law. I was looking at the 350W Yose Power geared hub (Obviously outside the legal boundaries but the performance figures looked impressive) but if a 250W version was available giving me say real world 350W performance it would fit my needs perfectly.

TTFN
John

 

[Nealh]

Topbikekit have the AKM 100cst or the AKM 100sx (freewheel) both 250w, if you aren't too heavy say sub 75/80kg it should be alright run with a KT 17/18a and it will be better then the Yose kit

 

[snafu]

Give me a 80's Ford Cortina or old Land Rover anytime, so I go to a scrapheap to replace a front light housing instead of paying an engineer to set the damn thing in software before it can switch on without beeping an error on the dash forever...

I'm with you on this pentium,
My Scimitar requires a lot of ongoing TLC but if it all goes tits up I know if I have an adjustable wrench, a screwdriver and a hammer I can usually get it going again.

TTFN
John

 

[snafu]

Topbikekit have the AKM 100cst or the AKM 100sx (freewheel) both 250w, if you aren't too heavy say sub 75/80kg it should be alright run with a KT 17/18a and it will be better then the Yose kit

That's what I love about this forum. Real world answers. I had not heard of TopbikeKit. Just been basing my opinions on Kirby, Dillenger and Yose. I needs to see what Brexit does to prices, but it's another string to my Bow. I've shied away from the cheap Ebay products as I prefer to spend a bit more on a proven system rather than trying to decipher Chinese/English instructions, measure twice, cut once is my mantra.

Thanks all.

TTFN
John

 

[Nealh]

One can also check BMSBattery and Greenbike kit.

 

[Deleted member 33385]

That's what I love about this forum. Real world answers. I had not heard of TopbikeKit. Just been basing my opinions on Kirby, Dillenger and Yose. I needs to see what Brexit does to prices, but it's another string to my Bow. I've shied away from the cheap Ebay products as I prefer to spend a bit more on a proven system rather than trying to decipher Chinese/English instructions, measure twice, cut once is my mantra.

Thanks all.

TTFN
John

That's what I love about this forum. Real world answers. I had not heard of TopbikeKit. Just been basing my opinions on Kirby, Dillenger and Yose. I needs to see what Brexit does to prices, but it's another string to my Bow. I've shied away from the cheap Ebay products as I prefer to spend a bit more on a proven system rather than trying to decipher Chinese/English instructions, measure twice, cut once is my mantra.

Thanks all.

TTFN
John

There won't be many cars which function after a gigantic geomagnetic storm from a Coronal Mass Ejection from the Sun, similar to the one which hit us 1859 (they happen quite regularly, as far as we know):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrington_Event

...but your Scimitar and my Cortina might be two of them. But at least you can still drive yours - I'm banned because of my damned eyes!

 

[vfr400]

Thanks Guys,
Easy to see how people get into difficulty not asking the right questions. I see so many "Remove speed limit, Make it go faster" posts elsewhere on other forums. If I could average 15 mph for the duration of my trips I would be a happy bunny. The "Six Pack" became a Watney's Party 7 a long time ago.

So, I can basically keep the hub motor and change everything else. That's fine by me, I guess If I could find a geared hub motor rated 250W I might able to get 350W performance and still stay on the right side of the law. I was looking at the 350W Yose Power geared hub (Obviously outside the legal boundaries but the performance figures looked impressive) but if a 250W version was available giving me say real world 350W performance it would fit my needs perfectly.

TTFN
John

There's nothing wrong with your motor. It's legal and it can provide all the power and speed you need. Power is controlled by the rest of the system, not the motor.

There are two different motors used on the Vengeance, one of which can't be replaced. Is yours black with the cyclindrical 9-pin connector, or does it have Suntour written on it and have the larger block connector shrouded under the left side chain-stay? The connector is the thing that determines which motor you have. The Suntour motor has a unique fixing system, so no other motor will fit AFAIK. Luckily, the Suntour motor is very good. It's robust and reliable.

 

[Darren Hayward]

Can you not simply buy a second battery from Halfords. It can be an excruciating battle with their staff as they tell you the battery does not exist but if you keep going you eventually get to a member of staff who will get the information you need.



Darren

 

[GSV3MiaC]

Second battery is definitely simplest way to go, if you can get one. Even the much maligned Bosch systems are quite happy with any old battery, as long as it is a matching Bosch one, they don't insist on 'the one I came with'.

 

[snafu]

Thanks for the replies,
Hi vfr, The motor is the Bafang BFSXW02. Although as you say nothing wrong with it and it does exactly what I need, so no immediate plans to change it.

As I mentioned above I have 2 bikes (Both in full working order). So already have a spare battery it's just the hassle of having to lug it around on the off chance I might need it.

My local store has them in stock but to be honest I object to paying £385 for a 36v - 8.8ah battery which as the bike is a 2018 model the battery has possibly been on the shelf at Halfords for 2 years..

I felt I could probably replace the the battery and controller plus have a more informative display for the same money if not a bit less.

I guess I should be thankful my friend questioned my logic as I would already be over £200 worse off had I just gone ahead and ordered the Yose Power battery.

So for the immediate future I'll take the spare with me.

Thanks again for putting me straight on the compatibility pitfalls.

I thought it was all going to be so easy.... Live and learn...

TTFN
John.

 

[vfr400]

You can use any 36v battery with your system - just join the two wires. The only provlem is your controller integrated into the battery receiver, but you can take it out and put it in a frame bag or controller box.

 

[snafu]

You can use any 36v battery with your system - just join the two wires. The only problem is your controller integrated into the battery receiver, but you can take it out and put it in a frame bag or controller box.

Ah, so am I back to where I thought I was when I asked the original question? (Yes I can simply plug a larger capacity [Same Voltage] battery into the existing power leads from the controller).

I had planned to remove the original battery cradle and therefore I knew I would have to re locate the controller in a box or bag as part of the exercise. I read somewhere Yose have stopped delivery to the UK due to the new tariff/tax procedures adopted by the UK post Brexit, so It's not going to happen until the madness resolves itself but I'll take a tour of the other vendors people mention and see what options are available.

Thanks again for all the replies.

TTFN
John.

 

[vfr400]

Yes, your controller has to wires for the battery. If you connect there, you can use any battery you like. That only applies to your version of the Vengeance, not the later one and not the Vulcan or Crossfire, all of which use comms.