Bafang Max Drive bikes
- Thread starter Ultrafunkula
- Start date
That can only be good news. Other suppliers should think about showing their hand, else Greenway will soak up all the orders from the early adopters in the UK!
agreed.
I think Greenway has set the bar for the baseline product.
It is nigh impossible to compete with Greenway on value for money.
Other suppliers will have to have some other features above the baseline to justify their price.
I think Greenway has set the bar for the baseline product.
It is nigh impossible to compete with Greenway on value for money.
Other suppliers will have to have some other features above the baseline to justify their price.
Personally, I don't think it's sustainable. Greenway's main market is high-volume, minimal margin low-cost pedal bikes. Most people will "take a chance" buying a cheap bike off Amazon/ebay for £100-£200. With that business model, the bikes do appear to be flying out the door.
The target audience is different for £1000+ bikes with more specialist fittings like this Max Drive. Greenway just don't (at least don't yet) have the marketing ability for it, as has been discussed.
If a high-volume, minimal margin bike importer/reseller wants to sell this bike for £1200 (which is what it was up until recently), and now drops the price to £1000, whatever little money they were making on this Cross bike is now even less. When their current stock is cleared, will they bother ordering another container?
Woosh - as an importer/reseller, you've already mulled the figures, haven't you? From a business perspective, it's not worth it, is it? And you know, Woosh, they're making NOTHING on their battery packs, are they?
I'd think Greenway will keep importing/reselling lower-end e-bikes, but I'm not convinced they'll re-stock (what is to them) upper-market models unless they can shift the volume and maintain their usual margin (which they currently don't seem to be doing on their two "premium" max-drive models).
As a punter, if you want one of these stupidly cheap Max Drive bikes, I'd buy one now (although if there IS a massive and sudden surge in demand, they may well order another container!).
Just my own thoughts.
Good and informative Cyclebuddy, The price has fallen in the Greenway Max Dive not due to lack of demand for the product , it's down to their poor marketing it's listed everywhere as a mid drive bike, eBay local ads, gumtree etc. Not selling because buyers have no idea what it is, picture correct, bit just a magazine type picture,description wrong, look at all us guys not willing to buy as we were sceptical of what we were going to get ,maybe of being burned in past experience of internet buying and not seeing goods in person, internet full of junk bikes and scams,and when you are parting with over a bag of sand for a bike you have to be careful.
With you Cyclebuddy and I visiting, messaging before taking the plunge , buying these bikes and commenting on this forum we've essentially marketed the bike correctly for him, even tho only on this forum . His marketing probably won't change as he's totally green when it comes to ebike knowledge,(pardon the pun) he may not restock, down to his lack of knowledge, as my unit is a 2015, he's had these bikes knocking around and tying his money up too long compared with throw away weekend internet and eBay specials that he normally sells for everyday first time bike riding families,
Max drive is intending to take Europe on, outselling the likes of Bosch ,Brose, etc, an EU HQ in the Netherlands , all they need is decent marketing e.g. Educating the ebike riders and cycling fraternities how good the unit is , decent cycle parts, parts fitting onto some of these different design frames that are being manufactured around the globe it's in its early stages still but will be a major force. The BBS02 has major success worldwide with good back up and knowledge to hodrodding ,design changes for reliability ,Only lack of legality ,inability to buy off the shelf in mainstream shops ,looking like a mash up, and mega Fugly,are more folk not taking this unit on ,but the Max Drive set up if it gets its foothold it will take over the bbs here in UK ebike game.
Luna cycles are working closely with Bafang and have done a lot of development work to improve units, they have the Prototype Max Ultra drive in a bike testing at minute 1000w and 160 torque that's gonna be fun for some.
Would you mind if I wonder out loud?
I am looking at the possibility to supply IBDs with just the frames and electronics. The shops can then add all the other components.
This is because the very high courier cost of sending the whole bike back and forth to the shops stops me selling to IBDs.
What do you think the market size is?
1. 100 sets a year
2. 500 sets a year
3. 2000 sets a year
4. 5000 sets a year
Thanks.
I am looking at the possibility to supply IBDs with just the frames and electronics. The shops can then add all the other components.
This is because the very high courier cost of sending the whole bike back and forth to the shops stops me selling to IBDs.
What do you think the market size is?
1. 100 sets a year
2. 500 sets a year
3. 2000 sets a year
4. 5000 sets a year
Thanks.
My BBSHD has a 46T-11T gearing on a 29" wheel and top speed is 34Mph and thats assuming the winds not blowing.
Good idea woosh, certainly there is a market for independents to get involved in building specialised bikes , you could do with Evans cycles to get onboard and sell a few to them in form of built bikes, as long as you take warranty claims onboard you would be ok, Evans dealt with Tern cycles side off of Damon after a bitter divorce but a few frames cracked , and tern would not deal properly on returns hence they are no longer part of Evans supply chain.
This is a nice max drive, sold out as usual
http://www.biktrix.com/collections/bikes/products/biktrix-montecapro
Need to find a frame maker then get the max drive kits from CNEbikes as they seem to be cheapest , Bafang won't even reply to buyers unless they spend half a million dollars, u may have to save a few motors to cannibalise for warranty parts , biktrix sold out quickly of all their stock, alibaba have good list of bike suppliers ,which is where I think biktrix get there's,you can make your own spec on build quality too. if you have a good bike product and back up, top stores will buy them . Quantities is a bit of an unknown till you get that sample product to those stores and if they want exclusive deals with you so you can't sell to other shops , if ebiking is going to continue to rise in popularity as it is in holland/Germany etc. Then you will be a busy man.
Food for thought woosh
OK so wee need frames that have standard dropouts and horizontal dropouts. It would be the same frame design but in IGH and derailleur versions. Road/city bikes in 28", 27.5" and 26" versions
The frames have to look at least as good as the Decathlon frames look, they are the entry level bike on the market here. HL battery pack is fine. You could specify a frame design that integrates it a little better than sat on top of a round tube. Step through frame design needs to be light weight so I am all in favour of a twin tube "old style" frame such as I have as long as there is space for the HL battery pack. Frame needs v-brake and disk brake option for the rear brake. Don't forget the rivnuts for the frame lock mounting! And of course internal cable run, lights and LCD -> controller cable included. Most important of all a place to mount the speed sensor with discreet wiring!
Frames and motors are one thing but electronics are just as important. I would love a wireless Bluetooth button-set on the handlebar. It should indicate battery level preferably in Volts and the assistance level, on/off switch and light switch. If you must it could have a speed indicator too, not for me but for normal clients
Consulting fee bill to follow by e-mail
The frames have to look at least as good as the Decathlon frames look, they are the entry level bike on the market here. HL battery pack is fine. You could specify a frame design that integrates it a little better than sat on top of a round tube. Step through frame design needs to be light weight so I am all in favour of a twin tube "old style" frame such as I have as long as there is space for the HL battery pack. Frame needs v-brake and disk brake option for the rear brake. Don't forget the rivnuts for the frame lock mounting! And of course internal cable run, lights and LCD -> controller cable included. Most important of all a place to mount the speed sensor with discreet wiring!
Frames and motors are one thing but electronics are just as important. I would love a wireless Bluetooth button-set on the handlebar. It should indicate battery level preferably in Volts and the assistance level, on/off switch and light switch. If you must it could have a speed indicator too, not for me but for normal clients
Consulting fee bill to follow by e-mail
I don't think it matters what you sell. If the quality is there and the price is right, it'll sell if you find your market. The better the price/value ratio, the more you'll sell.
Transport is a significant cost factor to weigh in that balance. Being stuck at the far end of the A13 on the Essex Coast can't help.
Whether supplying whole e-bikes or parts, I’d be renting warehouse space right next door to one or more carrier company’s main distribution hubs (they do tend to cluster)… so close I could drag my bikes across their forecourt and right onto their despatch bay.
We might justifiably highlight issues with Greenway’s poor marketing, but one thing they do have nailed is a slick shipping and distribution operation from a location at the intersection of several motorways and major A roads. From what they charge for delivery, their transport must be cheap as chips (they're certainly not making much on their bikes).
Why are the majority of e-bike importers/distributors/resellers stuck in the most inaccessible and unlikely places?
Yes Greenway must have cut an unbelievable deal with the courier company they use , £9 delivery from London to Coventry with a 20kilo box 5'X3'x1' a van does say 25 to gallon a lorry 6 to 8 to gallon , the courier defo had his pants pulled down on that deal., or its subsidised by seller quoting cheap delivery to us and paying the rest himself,,,,along with evilbay costs, even less profit!
I reckon a lot of e-bike businesses started as a sideline to use up spare warehouse and/or office space and because the phone does not ring constantly, share staff as well.
Thank you AKW and cyclebuddy for your thoughts.
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If you do a CH check on Greenways address, you'll see that bikes aren't the only commodity they're importing/reselling from their impressively large and stylish warehouse/building!
PS: Greenway's spare Samsung batteries have delisted/disappeared from view... has he sold them all?
Possibly - I made a "best offer" of £140 - he came back with a counter offer of £160 and then delisted within about 30 minutes
Yesterday I went for a ride (17°C, overdressed... ) and tried the 32 tooth chainwheel up the steepish 2 km + hill back home. 18.5 km/h up to 19 km/h at cadence and only 0.1 V - 0.2 V sag. Most was at assistance level 4 and in 3rd and 4th gear pulling about 270 W according to the LCD. tried dropping down to level 3 and was at about 14 km/h pulling well over 300 W.
Using the 42 tooth the motor pulls well over 400 W and the battery sags about 0.6 V for a speed of about 22 km/h on the same stretch of road. Oh and gears 3rd and down to 2nd for two steepest bits.
So there you have a "real world" comparison of gear ratios on a mid-drive 250 W motor on slopes of about 7% average with spots at 10%.
) and tried the 32 tooth chainwheel up the steepish 2 km + hill back home. 18.5 km/h up to 19 km/h at cadence and only 0.1 V - 0.2 V sag. Most was at assistance level 4 and in 3rd and 4th gear pulling about 270 W according to the LCD. tried dropping down to level 3 and was at about 14 km/h pulling well over 300 W.Using the 42 tooth the motor pulls well over 400 W and the battery sags about 0.6 V for a speed of about 22 km/h on the same stretch of road. Oh and gears 3rd and down to 2nd for two steepest bits.
So there you have a "real world" comparison of gear ratios on a mid-drive 250 W motor on slopes of about 7% average with spots at 10%.
I just chucked the numbers into my bike spreadsheet:
With highish end components I end up with a bike at 1980 GBP (2300 €) including a 300 € battery. A bit steep but my choice of components (DT Swiss wheels, RST monoshock fork, magura brakes...) and a motor that has been measured against Yamaha and Bosch with success, why not.
If I downgraded to derailleur and good quality Taylor wheels ready build wheels (Mavic, Sora) etc. I can get that down to 1775 GBP
That looks about right price wise.
With highish end components I end up with a bike at 1980 GBP (2300 €) including a 300 € battery. A bit steep but my choice of components (DT Swiss wheels, RST monoshock fork, magura brakes...) and a motor that has been measured against Yamaha and Bosch with success, why not.
If I downgraded to derailleur and good quality Taylor wheels ready build wheels (Mavic, Sora) etc. I can get that down to 1775 GBP
That looks about right price wise.
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