bafang manufacturers

trex

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jonathan75

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Unless the advert says something about warranty, then the item is sold without warranty. The vendor does not claim he is a trader.
If you do, then I don't think Gumtree are capable of doing much to help you.
If the seller promised a warranty on the phone or in person or any other way that is a warranty. It doesn't matter that it wasn't written down.

You don't have to hold yourself out to be a business seller to be treated as one, you just have to be one. If the seller pretends to be a private seller but is really acting in the course of a business, that's a criminal offence apparently. If that's the case then just omitting to mention one's a business seller seems to carry with it potential criminal liability.
 

trex

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I don't think the case for the warranty is strong. If the vendor advertises on gumtree as part of his business then the OP could possibly argue to be treated as one of his regular customers.
The point I try to make is that the word warranty usually does not mean much, it needs proper definition of what is guaranteed and what's not, the use and the length of time to assess what it's worth. Warranty is closer to an insurance policy than the sales of goods act.
The component is not fitted by the vendor or one of his agents, the battery is not supplied by the vendor or his agents, the warranty terms are not properly defined to be part of a sale contract. If the OP paid with paypal then he may get some help.
If the vendor is an individual, having bought the kit from China, surplus to his requirements, tries to sell it as seen (the default term of items for sale on free ads) on gumtree and the OP paid in cash, I don't think he'd win in Small Claims Court.
 
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jonathan75

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the word warranty usually does not mean much, it needs proper definition of what is guaranteed and what's not, the use and the length of time to assess what it's worth.
I'm sorry but this just isn't true. At all. Hillas v Arcos. Honestly if you knew how wrong you were you wouldn't even begin to post on these topics. I'm holding back from being blunt because I know how awful I find being told I'm talking nonsense. But I'm afraid you are.

The courts will look to the intentions of the parties. A seemingly vague word can and will be construed by the court if it's thought capable of being construed, and if the parties were thought to have intended to create legal relations. In this case the natural meaning of a warranty, is a promise that the item will function properly in the absence of abuse. If the item fails, what happens next is a question of what is fair. For a powerful company it seems fair that it will be made to work again or similar. For a private seller I think a refund less a pro-rata deduction for usage. These are easily capable of being ascertained.

Warranty is closer to an insurance policy than the sales of goods act.
Your understanding of warranty from my having read your posts on another thread which I gave up on in despair, is unfortunately limited to your having just read warranties, without your reflecting on the application of the principles of contract law to these contracts of warranty.

The component is not fitted by the vendor or one of his agents, the battery is not supplied by the vendor or his agents, the warranty terms are not properly defined to be part of a sale contract. If the OP paid with paypal then he may get some help.
If the vendor is an individual, having bought the kit from China, surplus to his requirements, tries to sell it as seen (the default term of items for sale on free ads) on gumtree and the OP paid in cash, I don't think he'd win in Small Claims Court.
The issue of being a business seller aside (which is a simple question of fact imho, he is or isn't), all we are talking about is a promise of a warranty. Paypal may not be capable of incorporating unwritten (spoken only) terms into their guarantee, although this I don't know. If it's written then it's possible PayPal could be held to honour it although this depends on an assessment of whether PayPal's contract encompasses that on the facts, and whether any exclusion of PayPals is incorporated and if so whether it meets fairness criteria.

However the small claims court is the other possible route if any promise of warranty had been made by whatever means. Whether someone promises something is a question of fact not of law, and if it is a concluding part of a negotiation for a sale then it is ordinarily incorporated into the contract. The court will just ask whether they believe the buyer, which on the facts I think they might. If they believe the buyer that a promise was made, they will have no choice but to enforce the contract.

I am sorry but I simply don't have the time and energy to keep correcting you. I will say it - you talk nonsense on contract. Please spare me the horror of your spreading utter misinformation about the law. If you're really interested in it take a course in contract and consumer, or read some serious books - but please, please stop pumping out this utter nonsense. I am sorry for being rude, genuinely I am. I really look up to your knowledge on all sorts of other things but not consumer law.
 
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trex

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IMHO, you need to have a reasonably strong case before taking legal action. The OP has only mentioned that he paid with paypal and paypal refused to help him. He has not mentioned any promise made to him.
It seems clear to me that if there is not sufficient basis for paypal to reverse the payment then the chance of winning in Court is not strong.
The key point in this case is, as I understand, whether the transaction is between a trader and a consumer (subject to the Sale of Goods Act) or between two consumers (outside the Act).
Ebay explain very well the way warranty works for their customers here:

http://www.ebay.com/gds/Are-you-really-getting-a-warranty-/10000000175795775/g.html

...
So for example, if you buy a new HP laptop from someone on ebay with a 1 year warranty and it breaks 6 months later, HP is not going honor the warranty unless you can show them the original receipt from Staples or whatever store it was originally bought from (and a paypal receipt is absolutely worthless - it must be the original major store receipt.) So when buying computers or electronics on ebay, if the seller is not including the store receipt with the item, YOU ARE NOT GETTING ANY WARRANTY. Always ask the seller if they are including the receipt; otherwise, you have to consider the amount you are saving versus the risk that you have no warranty.
Warranty is given by the manufacturers and honoured by the manufacturers, the warranty itself is outside the Sales of Goods Act. If you buy a KTM bike, as Col @ KTM explained, the motor is warrantied by Bosch or Yamaha, the brakes by Magura, the frame by KTM and so on. If you go to Court, you are asking for your money back and the amount is awarded by the magistrate as he sees fit.
 
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D

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There's another point. You can break any Ebike motor through mis-use, which will weaken any warranty claim. It's unusual for a controller to blow a mosfet ( if that's what's wrong) without some cause. Most of the guys on ES blew theirs when they reprogrammed the throttle, though I think it's still possible to blow them without programming in some abnormal circumstances.
 

jonathan75

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He has not mentioned any promise made to him.
Trex - have a look at what the OP said.

I will look into it tomorrow. the add on gumtree states a 1 year warranty but the guy won't reply.

It seems clear to me that if there is not sufficient basis for paypal to reverse the payment then the chance of winning in Court is not strong.
The key point in this case is, as I understand, whether the transaction is between a trader and a consumer (subject to the Sale of Goods Act) or between two consumers (outside the Act).
Ebay explain very well the way warranty works for their customers here:

http://www.ebay.com/gds/Are-you-really-getting-a-warranty-/10000000175795775/g.html



Warranty is given by the manufacturers and honoured by the manufacturers, the warranty itself is outside the Sales of Goods Act. If you buy a KTM bike, as Col @ KTM explained, the motor is warrantied by Bosch or Yamaha, the brakes by Magura, the frame by KTM and so on. If you go to Court, you are asking for your money back and the amount is awarded by the magistrate as he sees fit.
Trex everything you've just said is incorrect as a matter of law. I don't mean a little bit incorrect. I mean utterly fictional. You don't even realise it. You just come out with this stuff. Please just don't do this to yourself, to me, and to the people reading this board. I don't think it's even worth any longer my going over point by point why each sentence is wrong. I don't have the time and energy. Please stop this.
 

shemozzle999

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jonathon75, I would not get to worked up, I have a feeling - although I could be wrong - that Trex has worked out who the rival supplier of this motor is from the location and photographs he posted.
 
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shemozzle999

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Good on you for taking it to Citizens Advice - was that the telephone helpline? I believe that's the new frontline for Trading Standards - so the serious complaints get passed on to Trading Standards. This sounds like a Trading Standards or Competition & Markets Authority issue (the CMA is the new OFT). Unfortunately you will never hear about it again - this is a massive flaw with their system, in that once you make a complaint, that's the last you hear of it again, whether or not they do anything with it. It's the opposite of transparency.

Now the three degrees of misrep pertain to different routes for wronged parties in contract - I think that Trading Standards have a different set of rules, because contract and criminal are really totally separate, sealed-off areas of law. When someone fraudulently misrepresents, I believe (but am not sure) that isn't identical with the requirements for a criminal fraud charge. But you're right that at worst the facts which made fraudulent misrep a possible remedy, could lead to a criminal charge. The thing is that Trading Standards have imho such difficulty tying their shoelaces, they're more minded to send mild-mannered letters to the worst timeshare fraudsters, so the chances of advertisers on this site going to jail, or being sanctioned in any way, are nil. For TS it's all about 'behaviour modification' and 'education', see...
If you are interested. I have received a reply from CA which points me in this direction:

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/news/whats_new_oct14_unfair_trading_-_new_rights_for_consumers.htm

and

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCcQFjAB&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/409334/bis-14-1030-misleading-and-aggressive-selling-rights-consumer-protection-amendment-regulations-2014-guidance.pdf&ei=zTQ4VdjkOdjxarGBgeAI&usg=AFQjCNFIyo30e5j1za24DqWDzbAWKC9zTA&sig2=IIXtFWcx-AOb_6i_Z9gkGA&bvm=bv.91427555,d.d2s&cad=rja

which interestingly contains conversely:

9. This limitation is, however, relatively narrow. This is because it only applies where the trader has omitted material information but the overall presentation of the product or service is not misleading. In most situations, omitting material information would create a misleading overall presentation, and therefore count as a misleading action.
10. Misleading omissions remain a criminal offence under regulation 6 of the 2008 Regulations, enforceable by Trading Standards, but consumers have no private remedy against the trader.

So if you don't tell your buyer it can not be used legally on the road .................
 
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trex

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trex

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selrahc1992

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shemozzle999

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but they have a returns and repair policy. The OP could check the contact telephone number and see if it is the same as the one Gumtree provides.
 

trex

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if I were the OP, I'd take the seller to Court although the gumtree ad did not have any return policy.
The first step is to obtain the guy's address to serve the claim. Ebay can't give it to the OP because he did not buy it on ebay, I wonder how you'd get his address?
 
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trex

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yes. You are right on this one. I still think it's cheaper and and less aggro to get a new controller from bmsbattery.com than going to Court. The average person would find litigation quite stressful.
 
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