Bafang 350W 48V rear motor - what's your view?

[Woosh]

We are considering offering this motor as an option on some models to enable heavy weights to get up hills.
We currently get called several times a day by riders over 120Kgs and know they will struggle with a standard 250w version up steep inclines. We would still limit the controller so the speed issue isn't a problem (which kind of negates it a bit, we realise), but essentially this would void EN 15194 regs .... and we have a moral problem with this.
What do you think folks?

 

[hoppy]

This is why crank drive is so good.A legal motor will climb steep hills in a low gear.

 

[flecc]

Well you won't be breaking any law as you know Hatti, so I think it's somewhat questionable whether you have a moral position in the decision. Clearly the onus is entirely upon users whether they breach the law. However, I think you do have an implied moral duty to inform a prospective purchaser of the legal position. I think this is best done on a printed form which can be carefully worded, since its important not to give any impression of encouragement. For example, a comment that the chances of being caught are minimal could be construed as encouragement. However, if a prospective purchaser asks about the chance of being caught, you can truthfully state the level of policing of this matter is very low.

 

[alfie]

Have you tried a rear 36v BPM with a 20amp 8fun e-bus controller. I have a bike with this fitted and have restricted it for speed and it pulls like a train up hills. Try one of these first before you decide that you need to go 48 volts?

 

[Jimod]

Although people say the chances of a rider being caught is slim, the consequences for them if caught can be quite severe. As a company I reckon you'd be in a tricky situation if one of your customers gets caught and appears in court. The first thing they'd say is " I bought it from a shop and they never told me it was illegal"
It's your business of course but you have now gone public asking if you should sell an illegal bike knowing the customer was going to use it on the road.

 

[flecc]

As Alfie says above, changing to a higher current 20 amp controller still at 36 volts is the other option, and better from a hill climb ability point of view. Raising the voltage is more about speed increase, which you then intend to choke off with restriction.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I agree with Alfie. Only 36v volts would be necessary for hill-climbing. 48v is better for speed. A 120kg rider will need about 25 amps to get up Bread and Cheese hill (if it's still called that now that the pub has gone).

The guy on the Emotion stand at Bristol told me that their bike has the BPM2 motor in it, and that went up the Park Street hill with no effort, so the motor is not illegal. You just need to know people in high places (of certification).

The other thing is that there are still rumours that the legal power limit may be increased imminently. Does anybody know the latest?

 

[flecc]

The other thing is that there are still rumours that the legal power limit may be increased imminently. Does anybody know the latest?

It's very unlikely to be imminent. The European Parliament have recommended removal of the power limit altogether, but they have no legal power, that resting with the EU Commission. The Commission were already working on revisions to the pedelec law which Europe may get in 2013 so this recommendation may not even be considered as part of that. When we in the UK get any of this is unknown, but there are indications that there will be revisions currently being worked on which may come out next year, finally legalising 250 watts and the EU pedelec law, with a possibility only of throttles continuing to be legal.

I see only a very slim chance of the UK allowing more power, and no chance of our adopting a "no limit" policy even if Europe does at some time.

 

[jazper53]

Sometimes you have to break the law to change the law, there are many examples throughout history, where laws have been changed for the better due to mass law breaking. I have never regarded man-made laws as a holy grail, and never will

 

[flecc]

Unfortunately, massed e-bikers is an oxymoron in the UK.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Hatti,many other e-bike suppliers have increased the current rating of the controller,usually up from 12amp to 18 amp. I experimented on a test bike and with a 36v system,8 fun motor the end result was not worthwhile,the motor was much noisier,the range plummeted and the fuse holders got hot-if you remember one well known importer did this and had lots of problems with fuse holders burning out.
Also the current usage is so high that to get a decent range you have to go 16-20 Ah batteries,the bikes weigh a ton and are unpleasant to ride.
The current most popular spec of 36v x 10 Ah battery,Bafang 250 watt motor and 12 amp controller seems to do what most people want. I have customers who weigh 23 stone and still find all ok. Most still want to input some power to get assisted exercise.
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[jazper53]

Unfortunately, massed e-bikers is an oxymoron in the UK.

Maybe, So will have to rely on tokenism then.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I have customers who weigh 23 stone and still find all ok. Most still want to input some power to get assisted exercise.
Dave
Kudoscycles

There's no way a 23 stone guy will get a Kudos bike with 250w Bafang motor up Bread and Cheese Hill near Southend (A13) without getting off and pushing, but maybe he's happy like that.

Don't forget that both the Alien Aurora and the entire Emotion Neo range have the 350w Bafang BPM motor and 10aH batteries. The Emotion Neo is my favourite ready-made bike and the Aurora isn't bad either.

 

[Blew it]

....if you remember one well known importer did this and had lots of problems with fuse holders burning out....

Hold on a minute, that's not entirely correct.

Yes, the 'importer' you speak of did have problems with melting fuse-holder bodies, because the battery manufacturer decided to fit fuse-holders rated at only 6 amps instead of the specified 20 amp. The machines involved were fitted with 16.5 amp controllers.

You also said:

"The current most popular spec of 36v x 10 Ah battery,Bafang 250 watt motor and 12 amp controller seems to do what most people want."

Again, incorrect. The vast majority of 36 volt hub-motored machines are fitted with 15 amp controllers. Kudos machines are very much in the minority with only 12 amp controllers.

 

[Kudoscycles]

There's no way a 23 stone guy will get a Kudos bike with 250w Bafang motor up Bread and Cheese Hill near Southend (A13) without getting off and pushing, but maybe he's happy like that.

Don't forget that both the Alien Aurora and the entire Emotion Neo range have the 350w Bafang BPM motor and 10aH batteries. The Emotion Neo is my favourite ready-made bike and the Aurora isn't bad either.

We have the BH Emotion bikes,Neo Cross and Extreme for sale at Kudos,we are intending to extend the range of bikes to include franchises remote from the Kudos brand such as BH and KTM,I also wanted to include the Winora and Haibike but I am advised that these will be sold through the Raleigh distribution. The BH bikes are rated according to the EN15194 certificate at 250 watts.
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[Deleted member 4366]

We have the BH Emotion bikes,Neo Cross and Extreme for sale at Kudos,we are intending to extend the range of bikes to include franchises remote from the Kudos brand such as BH and KTM,I also wanted to include the Winora and Haibike but I am advised that these will be sold through the Raleigh distribution. The BH bikes are rated according to the EN15194 certificate at 250 watts.
Dave
Kudoscycles

I'm totally confused now. You're selling bikes with the same motor as what Woosh are proposing, but you're advising them against it because you think there will be problems with it and that people only want 12 amps. I bet if you put an ammeter on the Neo, it'll reach at least 20amps. It may have an EN15194 certificate, but there's no way in the world that you can sensibly rate it at 250w. We all know that that motor runs hapily past 1000w, and my guess is that's what you'll see on a meter with the Neo going up a steep hill.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I'm totally confused now. You're selling bikes with the same motor as what Woosh are proposing, but you're advising them against it because you think there will be problems with it and that people only want 12 amps. I bet if you put an ammeter on the Neo, it'll reach at least 20amps. It may have an EN15194 certificate, but there's no way in the world that you can sensibly rate it at 250w. We all know that that motor runs hapily past 1000w, and my guess is that's what you'll see on a meter with the Neo going up a steep hill.

If you look at Hatti's first posting he has admitted that changing to the motor he was proposing would void his EN15194 certificate,whereas the Neo bikes are advised in the specification as detuned to 250 watts and come with a EN15194 certificate,that is the difference.
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[Deleted member 4366]

The one that I rode at Bristol wasn't de-tuned to 250w!

 

[Kudoscycles]

The one that I rode at Bristol wasn't de-tuned to 250w!

Naughty!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Woosh]

Technicalities aside, Dave, fancy a date?
(I am female.....or at least I was when I last looked.....)

Interesting debate. Really just wanted to sound out various views. We would be very careful about anything sold as we really do intend to keep within the law. Have had feedback from our Chinese suppliers by the way with regard to Chinese mid drive kits and they do say there are still reliability problems. I think it will be a while before we go down this route. Only option therefore is BPM motor.