Anyone have experience of eliefbike / pswpower batteries

[minexplorer]

I bought a quality 17.4ah samsung cells from eclipse bikes for my bbs01 conversion. i wanted to upgrade my other bikes sla 24v ,with a 36v battery for my missus.As it wouldnt get much use i wanted something cheaper.I was well aware of the pitfalls of chinese generic cells .So on ebay, i thought this buy ok.Shipping from germany .2year guarantee, made with LG mg1 cells, 14.5ah.£195. £85 less than a 14.5 from eclipse.
Delivered in under a week.Well designed ,excellent solid mounting bracket. Only it didnt fit . so now the 17.4 is on the old bike and ive got to use the smaller capacity on my main bike. Not too bad,except its just not delivering the range it should.
Ive had 1000 miles on the bbs to get to know its range.With 17.4ah It will do 35miles with 15.5 mph cut off ,PAS on max.Moderate use of throttle. Thats translates into 29miles for 14.5ah.With the PSW 14.5ah im getting just 22 with NO throttle use.Really spoiled the distance i used to like cycling. I thought LG were supposed to be a good brand ,like the samsung eclipse use.Am i just another victim of poor chinese quality. Perhaps others can advise from experience on these batteries.Thanks

 

[malkie0831]

Since it is January maybe the cold and wind is affecting the range? Still disappointing though.

When you say the battery won’t fit your wife’s bike, what is the issue?

 

[minexplorer]

Since it is January maybe the cold and wind is affecting the range? Still disappointing though.

When you say the battery won’t fit your wife’s bike, what is the issue?

Hi malkie. The old bike was designed to have a battery slide in vertically behind the seat post,just enough room for the battery dimensions .Its a step through frame.No where else to mount it.The new battery doesnt slide vertically onto its bracket but has to go in at an angle.Pitfall of not buying from a shop.
Now the eclipse shark battery bracket is permanently fitted .i cant test it out on the bbs, to see if it also has lost range due to winter.

 

[Nealh]

I haven't seen any independent test/reviews for the MG1, it is meant to be a middle power 10a 2850mah rated cell much the same as the PF 10a 2900mah.
Figures for the MG1 may not be 100%.
Mooch on E - cigs only rated the PF as a v.g 2680mah cell at 5a and at 10a found internal resistance increased a lot nearing 2900mah discharge. So it is possible the MG1's mah may be a bit lower.

 

[minexplorer]

I haven't seen any independent test/reviews for the MG1, it is meant to be a middle power 10a 2850mah rated cell much the same as the PF 10a 2900mah.
Figures for the MG1 may not be 100%.
Mooch on E - cigs only rated the PF as a v.g 2680mah cell at 5a and at 10a found internal resistance increased a lot nearing 2900mah discharge. So it is possible the MG1's mah may be a bit lower.

Hi neal . I also saw they were 2850mah making 14.25 ah not the advertized 14.5. So you think in practice they might be lower .Perahaps the battery may be as little as 13.5 ah. Damn ,i thought LG were one of the recommended brands.
Shows no matter how hard you try to get a bargain.You always end up getting what you pay for. 30% cheaper 25% fewer miles

 

[Nealh]

LG, Samsung, Panasonic/Sanyo, Sony are the top main four though each produce cells that are variable.
Although they put out stats for cells, it's the independent tests that usually back up or downgrade the stats for the layman to see.
The cold weather might not be helping at the mo,

 

[anotherkiwi]

LG brand isn't the problem it is the type of LG cell which is. As many of us have discovered a BBS0x or equivalent is much harder on the battery and requires high output cells. 5P 10A cells isn't enough if you are using it hard you want a 15 A or a 20 A cell. I cooked my Samsung battery with the GSM but the cells were sagging even with the Mxus.

 

[minexplorer]

LG brand isn't the problem it is the type of LG cell which is. As many of us have discovered a BBS0x or equivalent is much harder on the battery and requires high output cells. 5P 10A cells isn't enough if you are using it hard you want a 15 A or a 20 A cell. I cooked my Samsung battery with the GSM but the cells were sagging even with the Mxus.

Hmm.How are ordinary people supposed to know all this tech.Ebike battery manufacturers surely should only be constructing them with the correct cells.Ones up tothe job.Ordinary folks cant possibly know what battery their motor needs,beyond 36v ,48v etc.You know ive def had a feeling with this battery its not as pokey as i remember.Could be my imagination tho.
Can you tell me if the eclipse bikes 17.4ah 36v i bought is correct for the 18 amp 350w bbs01 .Samsung 29e 10s6p 20-25 amp continous.The Lg battery spec also said 25amp continous.Thanks
Perhaps i should sell the LG while its hardly used an get another higher capacity for the bbs01 would it be compatible with eclipses 16ah 48v

 

[Nealh]

All cell rated capacities are the max that can be got out of them, the load for this max stated capacity is a meagre 0.2a load which is the standard applied across the board for all manufacturers.
To be fairer a battery stat needs to be looked at under a 3 - 5a load in which case you are looking at some cells having about 10% less capacity, looking on ES forum the MG1 appears to not be as good as the PF cell but not by much.
The 29E in 6p as your 17.4ah is will be fine as each cell will only be asked for a load of 3a per cell max.
A new 29E cell @ 0.2a load & 2.8v discharge gives 2890mah and at a 3a load it gives about 2680mah, so in fact can be classed for your usage as a 16.1ah battery. The reality though is much less because we don't take voltage that low it is more often 3.4v to 3.5v minimum for battery life, from your 17.4ah battery realistically you will only be using fully about 11 -12.5ah.

 

[Nealh]

One of the best stats/review sites is in the link below and is often linked to on this forum for reviews.
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Common18650comparator.php

 

[minexplorer]

All cell rated capacities are the max that can be got out of them, the load for this max stated capacity is a meagre 0.2a load which is the standard applied across the board for all manufacturers.
To be fairer a battery stat needs to be looked at under a 3 - 5a load in which case you are looking at some cells having about 10% less capacity, looking on ES forum the MG1 appears to not be as good as the PF cell but not by much.
The 29E in 6p as your 17.4ah is will be fine as each cell will only be asked for a load of 3a per cell max.
A new 29E cell @ 0.2a load & 2.8v discharge gives 2890mah and at a 3a load it gives about 2680mah, so in fact can be classed for your usage as a 16.1ah battery. The reality though is much less because we don't take voltage that low it is more often 3.4v to 3.5v minimum for battery life, from your 17.4ah battery realistically you will only be using fully about 11 -12.5ah.

Wow thats complicated stuff neal,but i think i understand.I noticed when using the 17.4 on my other bike, to which i fitted a volt meter display.The battery cut out at 28v (as stated by eclipse) but read 33v un loaded.The other battery also reads 33v at rest when exhausted .
So the remaining mah in the batteies is too low to give the required amp draw the motor would require to deliver a useful level of power. What you are saying then is all batteries wont give their stated capacity. A 10ah likewise may only have say 6ah available ? So its still best to get as big as you can afford.
Still puzzles me how so many others claim ranges as good on 10ah , as i get on a 17.4. A friend just had a bike made,250w rear hub ,unrestricted speed ,11ah ,an hes getting nearly 30 miles.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Wow thats complicated stuff neal,but i think i understand.I noticed when using the 17.4 on my other bike, to which i fitted a volt meter display.The battery cut out at 28v (as stated by eclipse) but read 33v un loaded.The other battery also reads 33v at rest when exhausted .
So the remaining mah in the batteies is too low to give the required amp draw the motor would require to deliver a useful level of power. What you are saying then is all batteries wont give their stated capacity. A 10ah likewise will only have say 7ah available ? So its still best to get as big as you can afford.
Still puzzles me how so many others claim ranges as good on 10ah , as i get on a 17.4. A friend just had a bike made,250w rear hub ,unrestricted speed ,11ah ,an hes getting nearly 30 miles.

Your big battery had more cells in each parallel group, that is a very good thing. 6P is better than 5P which is much better than 4P etc. If you are drawing 20 Amps total each cell in the parallel group has to supply 1/6th, 1/5th or 1/4 of the total so will be more or less stressed by the load.

Your LVC should be 30 or 33v depending on controller and BMS, the cells themselves are rated for down to 2.7v in many cases but you won't find much juice left below 3.3v.

I have found that my Samsung 10.4 Ah bottle battery gave about that when new, it is after a years hard use it fell to about 9 Ah which is to be expected. If you look at the tests and specs it will say down to 70% after 300 recharge cycles.

Range depends on the rider, my 10.4 Ah bottle battery with the Mxus was good for 70 km (43 m.) when I was very fit - 5.35 Wh/km. You can expect 7.5 Wh/km to 10 Wh/km depending on your state of fitness, the direction of the wind, the slope of the mountain...

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Ebike battery manufacturers surely should only be constructing them with the correct cells.Ones up tothe job.Ordinary folks cant possibly know what battery their motor needs,beyond 36v ,48v etc.

The battery is up to the job, but it has less capacity, lower spec cells and was cheaper than the Eclipse one. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that it's not going to give the same performance.

Battery technology is complicated though, so anybody needs to be careful when choosing a battery for any application. Personally, I've given up buying cheap batteries.

 

[Nealh]

Wow thats complicated stuff neal,but i think i understand.I noticed when using the 17.4 on my other bike, to which i fitted a volt meter display.The battery cut out at 28v (as stated by eclipse) but read 33v un loaded.The other battery also reads 33v at rest when exhausted .
So the remaining mah in the batteies is too low to give the required amp draw the motor would require to deliver a useful level of power. What you are saying then is all batteries wont give their stated capacity. A 10ah likewise will only have say 7ah available ? So its still best to get as big as you can afford.
Still puzzles me how so many others claim ranges as good on 10ah , as i get on a 17.4. A friend just had a bike made,250w rear hub ,unrestricted speed ,11ah ,an hes getting nearly 30 miles.

Yes if you can afford it.
I have a few packs and most are up to 3 - 4 years old now and like most of us before the knowledge is gathered early on, you buy and trust the marketing bling. As I use panniers and top rack bag as well I parallel them all together to lessen the individual cell amp draw to increase longevity and eke out a bit more range.
I find carrying softpack/shrink wrapped packs a bit lighter and certainly less bulky then hard case packs, though use a hardcase pack on the down tube with extend discharge leads to parallel with said soft packs via watt meter with in line fuse.

BMS voltage cut out can vary from maker/supplier all of my resting battery voltages are 34 - 35v.

Your friends bike may have a only a 12 or 15a controller but as AK says after a year or so they will start to notice range dropping especially using it unrestricted.

 

[footpump]

similar experience here 250w tdz2 at 16amps using sport mode
£160 yosepower 10ah round about 30 miles flattish terrain.

fitted a 13.5ah dolphin but range was no better mybe worse.
I decided to stick with yosepower brand and bought 17ah £245
at first I thought great the battery level on lcd was still on full at 14 miles then started to drop about 35 miles range no throttle and I am about the 11-13 as regards speed.

I met some one with the exact same 17ah battery 250w on step through doner bike 20 inch wheels pulling a trailer, person is light at 11 stone about 35 miles range.
I am hopefull the battery might perform better once we get some hot weather

 

[minexplorer]

similar experience here 250w tdz2 at 16amps using sport mode
£160 yosepower 10ah round about 30 miles flattish terrain.

fitted a 13.5ah dolphin but range was no better mybe worse.
I decided to stick with yosepower brand and bought 17ah £245
at first I thought great the battery level on lcd was still on full at 14 miles then started to drop about 35 miles range no throttle and I am about the 11-13 as regards speed.

I met some one with the exact same 17ah battery 250w on step through doner bike 20 inch wheels pulling a trailer, person is light at 11 stone about 35 miles range.
I am hopefull the battery might perform better once we get some hot weather

Yes it shows you just cant rely on these cheaper makes to deliver on their stated AH capacity.Its just not accurate .d8veh s comment says it all. Just not worth using cheaper batteries and you have to really check, even with the reputable brands ,what cells are being used.Also make sure its a 6 parallel construction.I finally understand what that means.
Much thanks to everyone,ive learned alot. Even if a little late,its cleared up why the range is short of expectations.
As a footnote ive sawed off a redundent fitting on my old bike.So now i can just about make the cheaper 5P battery fit. Now i can put my bigger 6P back on the bbs01 which needs it. The older bike was originally 24v SLA ,200w brushless rear hub.So if ive got this right ,as it wont draw so many amps as the 350w bbs.The cells in 5P will cope better. Anyone have any idea what the controller of this bike is likely drawing?

 

[Nealh]

Most controller have the amp rating written on the case otherwise 12 - 15 is likely to be the max rating.

Regarding cells in parallel it is only now that we have the big heavier whale type casings that 6P is being used otherwise 4 or 5P is still the norm.

 

[minexplorer]

Most controller have the amp rating written on the case otherwise 12 - 15 is likely to be the max rating.

Regarding cells in parallel it is only now that we have the big heavier whale type casings that 6P is being used otherwise 4 or 5P is still the norm.

Hi neal . Expanding on your figures. Now ive got it ive been doing some research.That link u gave didnt have the LG mg1, but i stumbled on a better place, DAMPFAKKUS. Very interesting stuff. The LG mg1 capacity at a draw of 2amp,3amp and 3.6 is 2600 ,2475 , 2400 .Samsung 29E, 2650,2580,2555 for the same .So on the 18amp bbs,drawing 3.6 amps on the 14.5ah mg1 cells 10s5p = 12ah real capacity.
The 17.4ah, 29e cells,10s6p,3amp draw ,would be around 15.5ah,real capacity
On the older bike if 12-15amp controller. 2.4-3amp draw on the 14.5ah LG battery. gives 12.75 - 12.35ah and less cell strain than the bbs gave it.
Dividing the revised watt hrs for both batteries on the bbs by 20 per mile . (I read this figure was a good rule of thumb ) .Im getting near exactly those ranges.
Hope this thread will give others some insight. Stated battery AH ,is complete bol##ks. Next time you re going to buy a battery, use the tech data on a site like DAMPFAKKUS .Look up that particular cell ,an do the math.Then you wont spend time stressing why the battery u just bought, doesnt go the distance the stated AH led u to believe.

 

[footpump]

slightly off topic.
at least with your eclipse and 14ah you know what cells are inside.
I asked yosepower what cells in 17ah, was told lg 50 3.5 except lg do not make 3.5 cells?
my ebc 13.4 when used on specialised sirrus elite 250w 15 amps max mode 2 out of 5 speed sensor quite often got 40miles range, although it seemed to require very little effort to actually ride.

yesterday on my subway with tdz2 250 w torque sensor set amps to 14 sport mode.
using the 13.4ah (which has only done about 700 miles)
I find its definitely requires more effort on my part.
(amps at 16 10 miles covered battery level dropped to 4 out of 8)
amps 14 9 miles covered battery level at 7 out of 8
just checked cells were stated at 50x3.4

 

[minexplorer]

slightly off topic.
at least with your eclipse and 14ah you know what cells are inside.
I asked yosepower what cells in 17ah, was told lg 50 3.5 except lg do not make 3.5 cells?
my ebc 13.4 when used on specialised sirrus elite 250w 15 amps max mode 2 out of 5 speed sensor quite often got 40miles range, although it seemed to require very little effort to actually ride.

yesterday on my subway with tdz2 250 w torque sensor set amps to 14 sport mode.
using the 13.4ah (which has only done about 700 miles)
I find its definitely requires more effort on my part.
(amps at 16 10 miles covered battery level dropped to 4 out of 8)
amps 14 9 miles covered battery level at 7 out of 8

That 17ah has to be the MJ1 cell. 3500mah though at 3 amp draw (15amp divided 5p ) the capacity is 2960mah = 14.8 AH
The ebc kit doesnt state the cells .So prob some moderate performance chinese brand ? Pas 2 of 5 or 40 % of 15 amps is 6 amp or only 1.2amp draw per cell on a 5p .No wonder u got 40 miles and poodling speed of 12mph.This was gentle on the cells. 16 amps controller is 3.2amp draw on the cells .Quite a lot for a lower end cell.Which probably sagged,hence the harder effort i reckon. The cells have reduced mah at 3.2 hence the battery depleating quicker .Dropping to 14 amps or 2.8 amp draw ,eased the strain on the cells.closer to what they are able to give as continous current. Increased mah.