Another London cyclist killed

[JohnCade]

You didn’t reply to may main point that the cyclist might well have been at the junction before the truck arrived, and either was not seen or was forgotten about a few minutes later once she was in his blind spot. You have been assuming that all these women are riding up the inside of stopped trucks at junctions and I have not seen any evidence that this is the case.

As I said above I alway made sure I was well away from the curb and well over the line at a junction like that in London. But it can be problematical when there are pedestrian lights at the junction as well, and some women in particular might be afraid of unpleasant comments.

 

[flecc]

You didn’t reply to may main point that the cyclist might well have been at the junction before the truck arrived, and either was not seen or was forgotten about a few minutes later once she was in his blind spot. You have been assuming that all these women are riding up the inside of stopped trucks at junctions and I have not seen any evidence that this is the case.

But those possibilities you mention are full of assumptions John. I'm not assuming that all the women ride up into the danger zone, but there have been many videos, including one of an actual death accident shown on ITV News, which show just this behaviour. It is clearly the major cause.

I repeat, these diversions into other possible causes are completely irrelevant to the real and major problem.

As I said above I alway made sure I was well away from the curb and well over the line at a junction like that in London. But it can be problematical when there are pedestrian lights at the junction as well, and some women in particular might be afraid of unpleasant comments.

That is indeed a problem, but men have adjusted successfully and greatly reduced their deaths. My aim is that women do the same, they surely are capable of appreciating that an unpleasant comment is preferable to death and are also capable of handling such comments.
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[JohnCade]

But those possibilities you mention are full of assumptions John. I'm not assuming that all the women ride up into the danger zone, but there have been many videos, including one of an actual death accident shown on ITV News, which show just this behaviour. It is clearly the major cause.

I repeat, these diversions into other possible causes are completely irrelevant to the real and major problem.



That is indeed a problem, but men have adjusted successfully and greatly reduced their deaths. My aim is that women do the same, they surely are capable of appreciating that an unpleasant comment is preferable to death and are also capable of handling such comments.
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Seems to me that it is you who is making assumptions here flecc. Contrary to what you wrote above, In this and in other threads on the subject you have consistently blamed women cyclists for riding into truck blind spots and have attempted to absolve the drivers or all blame; and you don’t know that is what happened.

There may be one video you’ve seen where a woman rider did ride into the danger zone, but neither you or I know if the others did it if the trucks came along when they were stationary.

 

[flecc]

Seems to me that it is you who is making assumptions here flecc. Contrary to what you wrote above, In this and in other threads on the subject you have consistently blamed women cyclists for riding into truck blind spots and have attempted to absolve the drivers or all blame; and you don’t know that is what happened.

There may be one video you’ve seen where a woman rider did ride into the danger zone, but neither you or I know if the others did it if the trucks came along when they were stationary.

You stagger me John, you appear determined to divert from the real problem. None of this is relevant.

When a large number of cyclists are performing the same function and one fifth of them have 16 times the death rate of the other four fifths, those deaths are caused by that one fifth's actions.

As is blindingly obvious, the drivers cannot be selectively causing that problem.
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[JohnCade]

You have written with complete certainly on several threads that women are riding up the inside of trucks at junctions, and that is the major cause of the accidents. So where is your evidence for this? Less bluster and more evidence would be useful.

It is as possible that the fact that this year more women riders than men have been killed is simply a statistical blip.

 

[EddieH]

You have written with complete certainly on several threads that women are riding up the inside of trucks at junctions, and that is the major cause of the accidents. So where is your evidence for this? .

Surely the fact that so many women and not men are being killed is evidence enough.

 

[JohnCade]

Surely the fact that so many women and not men are being killed is evidence enough.

As I said it could be a statistical blip, and it doesn’t prove flecc’s repeated contention that some women riders are going up the inside of stopped trucks at junctions.

If over a more statistically significant period a lot more women cyclists than men can be seen to be killed at junctions it is just as likely to be because they are less assertive in taking up a forward position. I have already conceded that this is very possible but have seen no evidence for them riding into blind spots. It is just as likely that the trucks passed them when they are waiting at the junction and they didn’t register.

 

[flecc]

You have written with complete certainly on several threads that women are riding up the inside of trucks at junctions, and that is the major cause of the accidents. So where is your evidence for this? Less bluster and more evidence would be useful.

It is as possible that the fact that this year more women riders than men have been killed is simply a statistical blip.

Oh dear!

London's cctv coverage is is extensive now that virtually everything is captured, I've just been watching the crooks making off over more than one stage with the proceeds of the Hatton Garden raids for example. Armed with this information and some witnesses, in the great majority of cases drivers are not being prosecuted by the police, many not even being arrested as was thr case in this latest instance. That speaks volumes.

I've also assiduously followed this subject and looked into the available public evidence in almost every case for the last few years and known what I've learnt and seen from that. I also live and cycle in London andhave done so for years and know what I see.

As for your silly comment on a statistical blip, year upon year the results are the same, the majority of these London cycling deaths are those of women while they form a small minority of the commuting cyclists. Furthermore I gave some evidence of that when I mentioned earlier the two BBC reports from 2007 and 2009 highlighting this fact and the BBC's mention of 7 out of 8 deaths being women part way through one of those years.

Here's a quote for you as you wish to see some facts:

The high incidence of women killed by lorries has come to the attention of the authorities before.

In 2007, an internal report for Transport for London concluded women cyclists are far more likely to be killed by lorries because, unlike men, they tend to obey red lights and wait at junctions in the driver's blind spot.

This means that if the lorry turns left, the driver cannot see the cyclist as the vehicle cuts across the bike's path.

The report said that male cyclists are generally quicker getting away from a red light - or, indeed, jump red lights - and so get out of the danger area.

Link to article including that information

There's plenty more online, the evidence is abundant for those wish to see, that apparently not including some cyclists.
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[JohnCade]

No need to be rude flecc. You are always quick to accuse others of rudeness so keep it civil.

Yet again you have not addressed my point. You have been claiming they were riding into blind spots when the trucks were stopped. Not the rest of the stuff you’ve just trotted out which we agree on. If you actually read my posts instead of being so quick to refute them you would know that.

 

[flecc]

I'm not being rude, just commenting on your insistence on avoiding the point of my posts and this thread. I've already covered your point as shown below.

I mentioned my own observations and the various videos I've seen, and they all show the very common practice of riding up into the nearside of trucks. That is not gender specific, many of both genders do it routinely, but from the evidence I've given and what is available elsewhere, men commonly do not remain in the danger spot, they ride through to go ahead of the trucks. As also said, they have also been improving on that aspect as their reduction in deaths shows.

Patently the women are not avoiding the dangers and are dying very disproportionally as a result. Nothing that you have said in any post in this thread alters that simple fact. If women are unwilling to ride through to safety, they should remain behind the trucks to stay out of danger. These are what needs to be highlighted to prevent the deaths, not the peripheral unlikelyhoods.

It's not me who is blustering, what I've been posting in this thread is fully supportable. The attempts to shift the blame onto drivers have been supported only by character assassination mainly based on a single case which didn't even involve a female cyclist. Of course I'm not pretending truck drivers are perfect, as a cyclist and driver I'm well aware of the imperfections of some of them. What I am insisting on is the impossibility of their being able to prevent this ever happening. Only the affected cyclists can achieve that end.
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[EddieH]

You have been claiming they were riding into blind spots when the trucks were stopped. .

If this where not the case the driver of the lorry would have been arrested and charged with causing death by dangerous driving.

 

[JohnCade]

If this where not the case the driver of the lorry would have been arrested and charged with causing death by dangerous driving.

Not really. It would just be the driver’s word against the cyclist and he/she would be dead. As I wrote earlier witnesses to RTAs in London melt away like the spring snow. I remember actually chasing one bloke to get his name when he saw someone drive into me once in my car, and he still refused to get involved. That was quite typical in my experience.

I fail to be convinced that all these women cyclists are so stupid and lacking in road sense that they would ride up the inside of trucks at junctions. But trucks should have better vision too. I drove some in the sixties or early seventies which had perspex at the front corners to see people directly in front. Fords I recall. So there’s no reason why doors can’t have transparent panels inserted. Or cameras fitted, or even extra mirrors to cover all the near side up to the front wheels. Because these large vehicle drivers do need better vision in crowded city streets to be able to see pedestrians and cyclists. It’s not good enough to just blame the victim.

 

[flecc]

I fail to be convinced that all these women cyclists are so stupid and lacking in road sense that they would ride up the inside of trucks at junctions. But trucks should have better vision too. I drove some in the sixties or early seventies which had perspex at the front corners to see people directly in front. Fords I recall. So there’s no reason why doors can’t have transparent panels inserted. Or cameras fitted, or even extra mirrors to cover all the near side up to the front wheels. Because these large vehicle drivers do need better vision in crowded city streets to be able to see pedestrians and cyclists. It’s not good enough to just blame the victim.

You really are not up to speed on this subject John, there have been many changes. I'm surprised that you mention that truck sides could have transparent panels inserted, when many have already had them for years. I was occasionally driving a high cab truck like that in the early 1980s. There are limitations to their size, placement and vision area though, since provision has to made for the wind down cab windows and their mechanisms. Many of the trucks operating in London have had many changes made as a direct result of these accidents. In many cases repeater side indicators have been added, also beepers sound synchronising with the flashing, and some companies have added additional mirrors to their fleets. Many have large additional warning signs added on their flanks advising cyclist to stay clear of those areas, and where practical, low fence guards have been added to help prevent anyone going underneath. Even cameras and view screens have been fitted in some cases.

However, such changes cannot prevent the deaths of those who ride up the nearside of trucks at the last minute. I've shown previously that a cyclist at the typical 20mph takes less than a second to come from behind a truck tailboard into the danger zone, and a driver cannot be looking in the side mirrors through every second, he has to look into several other points including where he is turning into. Adding extra mirrors doesn't always help either, he can only look into one mirror at a time in the second or so he has to look sideways during the manouvre.

All these changes have helped a little towards the following though, despite ever growing numbers of cycling commuting, the death numbers have stayed stable and their peaks lower than in the past. In recent years the average number of annual London cycling deaths has been around 14 per annum and not rising much above that. Over a decade ago the peak was 21 deaths and then only half the present number cycle commuted in London, showing the large scale of improvement. And a current online report shows a reduction in deaths and serious injuries of 9% between 2008 to 2012 when cycling commuting increased by 61%.

However, it's clear that the improvement in death rates is primarily due to males since each year the female deaths form at least a little over half the number and often more, while they are by far the minority of cycling commuters. It really doesn't matter that you insist on ignoring the knowledge that exists about the cause, what matters is what I've been saying all along, that the answer is in womens hands. They merely have to mimic male cycling practice to stay very much safer, and the necessary actions have been much publicised.

If they can't do that, they should just stay behind trucks. If a truck driver comes up alongside them when in motion, they merely have to either drop back behind or to just alongside the rear wheels since that is also safe, the wheels don't roll sideways. If a truck driver comes up alongside them in a traffic lane at a standstill, that's because the cyclist was wrongly positioned when they stopped, they should be far enough out to prevent that happening. That is why cycle zones are often positioned ahead of stop lines, to encourage cyclists to do just that, holding back motor vehicles.

Truck drivers cannot make them do any of those things in the last paragraph, those are entirely in the hands of cyclists. Just as there is good driving practice, there is also good cycling practice, and far too many cyclists fail in that.
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[4bound]

That is why cycle zones are often positioned ahead of stop lines, to encourage cyclists to do just that, holding back motor vehicles.

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Well that is the idea but it seems that many motorists are either ignorant of this regulation, or refuse to comply with it. I suspect that many drivers who did their driving test a while ago have no idea what they are supposed to do when they encounter an advance stop line. As cyclists we know they should stop before the first line, but many seem to think this does not apply if there is no cyclist there before they arrive in their motor vehicle.

 

[flecc]

Well that is the idea but it seems that many motorists are either ignorant of this regulation, or refuse to comply with it. I suspect that many drivers who did there driving test a while ago have no idea what they are supposed to do when they encounter an advance stop line. As cyclists we know they should stop before the first line, but many seem to think this does not apply if there is no cyclist there before they arrive in their motor vehicle.

Very true, but it does mean the vehicle was there first so in the present context of the discussion, it doesn't trap a cyclist alongside.
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[RobF]

I agree with flecc the statistical imbalance is too big to ignore.

If four out of five deaths were all ebikers, there would be a big steward's inquiry to find out why.

Unfortunately, too many people shy away from this problem for fear of appearing not 'on message' with gender equality.

Also many cyclists bellow 'victim blaming' at the suggestion their riding - whatever gender they are - could be improved.

We've had a more mature approach in this forum, probably because a lot of us are, er, more mature than those who post in other places.

 

[JohnCade]

i
However, such changes cannot prevent the deaths of those who ride up the nearside of trucks at the last minute. I've shown previously that a cyclist at the typical 20mph takes less than a second to come from behind a truck tailboard into the danger zone, and a driver cannot be looking in the side mirrors through every second, he has to look into several other points including where he is turning into. Adding extra mirrors doesn't always help either, he can only look into one mirror at a time in the second or so he has to look sideways during the manouvre.

All these changes have helped a little towards the following though, despite ever growing numbers of cycling commuting, the death numbers have stayed stable and their peaks lower than in the past. In recent years the average number of annual London cycling deaths has been around 14 per annum and not rising much above that. Over a decade ago the peak was 21 deaths and then only half the present number cycle commuted in London, showing the large scale of improvement. And a current online report shows a reduction in deaths and serious injuries of 9% between 2008 to 2012 when cycling commuting increased by 61%.

However, it's clear that the improvement in death rates is primarily due to males since each year the female deaths form at least a little over half the number and often more, while they are by far the minority of cycling commuters. It really doesn't matter that you insist on ignoring the knowledge that exists about the cause, what matters is what I've been saying all along, that the answer is in womens hands. They merely have to mimic male cycling practice to stay very much safer, and the necessary actions have been much publicised.

If they can't do that, they should just stay behind trucks. If a truck driver comes up alongside them when in motion, they merely have to either drop back behind or to just alongside the rear wheels since that is also safe, the wheels don't roll sideways. If a truck driver comes up alongside them in a traffic lane at a standstill, that's because the cyclist was wrongly positioned when they stopped, they should be far enough out to prevent that happening. That is why cycle zones are often positioned ahead of stop lines, to encourage cyclists to do just that, holding back motor vehicles.

Truck drivers cannot make them do any of those things in the last paragraph, those are entirely in the hands of cyclists. Just as there is good driving practice, there is also good cycling practice, and far too many cyclists fail in that.
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Sigh! You still claim that is what they are doing without presenting any evidence of it. I’ve been asking for some for about the last million posts, but all we get is your cast iron certainly and a lot of smoke and mirrors.

Speaking of which it’s alway possible to look in mirrors if they cover the blind spot. I’ve driven all kinds of vehicles and I always checked my nearside mirrors, they just have to be big enough to cover the area. A similar problem occurs when driving in right driving countries in a British truck, or foreign trucks here, when pulling into another motorway lane to overtake. It’s the same blindspot and has caused a lot of accidents. Trucks are fitted with big mirrors to cover that blindspot when they travel abroad now, and foreign wagons should have them when they come here.

So it can be done and trucks should have them and drivers should use them.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

How many men and women were killed in London last year and the year before? That will tell you whether this year is a statistical aberration.

 

[flecc]

Sigh! You still claim that is what they are doing without presenting any evidence of it.

They are doing the wrong things as I've said in the fifth paragraph of my post, and as I've constantly said, it really doesn't matter what that is. What really matters is that they should stop doing that, and that is my aim.

As for the knowledge, I've lived in London virtually all my life and still do. I've been cycling since the age of 10.

I'm a qualified trade union recognised motor mechanic who spent five years working predominantly on trucks and two years on truck inspectorate duties. During time I was driving trucks almost every working day. I've never taken a car test, I passed my test in a 10 ton long wheelbase truck.

Some years later in commerce, from the mid 1970s to the early 1990s I supplied engineering products to the construction industry from my Wandsworth depot. Although managing that, I kept my hand in by acting as a relief driver of my depot trucks for occasional absences. So that didn't take the whole day I confined myself to the construction site and depot deliveries in London and the immediate surrounding area.

So I tick every one of the boxes of relevant knowledge and have a balanced view.

On the one hand I'm posting of my subject specific knowledge plus that of TfL and other interested parties, all of us knowing the factors that cause this gender specific bias in deaths.

On the other hand we have your efforts to prove it's either the trucks or their drivers to blame, while never explaining how either select mainly females to kill.

I'll leave members to read this and all our other posts in this thread and decide for themselves who is right.
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[mike killay]

The authorities have provided advanced stop lines.
I wonder why?
Obviously because cyclists are in danger from left turning trucks.
Why are female deaths so disproportionate?
Cannot be anything to do with the trucks.