And another CX motor bearings bite the dust!

[Dario Troiano]

Last week I was riding out on my Cube Stereo HPA 140 500 race and noticed what i believed to be extra noise coming from the DU.

I really didn't know if it was a form of paranoia or if it truly was getting more noisy. So when i got home i did my usual cleaned the bike and put it on the stand. I did notice that after an incredibly muddy ride the cowling around my DU on the Cube Bike was leaking water for a very long time. (I've put a picture up so that you can see how Cube differ to lots of manufacturers in this area.)



taking one side of the cowling off (don't have a tool for the drive side as yet) and found that the drain holes that are in the cowling and a lower trim strip are small and just abound aligned with each other, there was lots of mud etc in the cowl thats for sure.

anyway proceeded to remove the chain and turn the crank to find that through the 360 degrees of rotation it felt different in its feel all the way around the stroke. it was at this point that i figured out that my paranoia was not for no reason.

so boxed it up whilst cleaning all the parts and put it back together. Contacted my local bike shop who happen to be a Cube agent, but not the company i bought it from and they said they would have a look.

I got a call from this this morning to advise that it most certainly looked like premature bearing failure, as there were some rust witness marks on the side of the DU when the cowling was removed.



Strangely they had no idea that the DU had no locally serviceable parts as they were quite prepared to take it on, but had received advice from the importer of the bike to desist and return the DU to Bosch. No criticism of these guys at all, they were conveying their instruction to me. However, they did heap lots of warning about warranty might be rejected because i had used a pressure washer on the bike etc and it might cost 600+ Euros.

As you can well imagine my clacker valve started to oscillate quite violently at this point, so i issued a cease and desist instruction to prevent them becoming more embroiled in to something than they needed to be.

I went over to the shop to photograph the DU just to get some evidence and a better understanding of the situation and to get them to put it back together so that i could take it to the company i originally purchased it from who had agreed to take it in and would not charge for the labour. All i got charged was £20!!!! don't think I've ever paid so little to have work done, least wise not in a BMW garage LOL.

This afternoon i took it to Rutland Cycles in Peterborough for them to do the work and deal with Bosch regarding its replacement as the original supplier.



as i have said earlier this bike does get muddy and it gets everywhere!



several things come to mind!

1. I only knew of the existence if the "seal" and its inability to deflect water by reading other members comments from their experiences of failures!

2. i only know of the new maintenance regime with the removal of the drive gear, removal of the seal and the application of the Bosch grease because of other members experiences!

3. I know not if this will be covered under the 2 year warranty or if i'll be expected to pony up for this little lot!

4. if there was a maintenance manual, sticker or something on the bike or at the point of sale (like there was for the front Fox fork and the rear Fox shock as well as the shimano brake leavers) to advise how to adjust or maintain them them possibly i might not be in this invidious position of not knowing which way this is going to go!

5. and lastly, if a little sticker had been placed in the area of the ineffective seal, then i might not have pointed a pressure cleaner at it for the last 14 months (probably 30-40 times washed) and possibly this might not have happened.

And really lastly, when folks suck through their teeth and say ooooh you shouldn't have pointed a pressure washer in that area like i should have know this..... put yourself in my position. I've owned motorbikes, race cars, worked on very large diesel generator sets, and have done no end of work on road going concrete mixers, and likely cleaned the lot of them with.... you guessed it a high pressure lance. only with vehicle electrical system did i ever consider shielding them from the effects of the water spray. So please don't jump to the conclusion that this was a deliberate act to self inflict this sort of trouble upon myself.

I await with baited breath to see the outcome from Bosch. As one other member has said on here on their thread regarding the CX drive! I happy to take this all the way to the small claims court if i have to pay for the replacement. Its a bike that goes in the mud, what was i expected to do with no warnings to the contrary.

 

[argoose]

With bikes it is a bad idea to use a pressure washer near any bearing. Wheel hub, free wheel, headset or suspension pivots. The water sealing is not as good as you'd think. They are sealed against rain and puddle spray, that's about it. Even a hose on full flow is dodgy.
If you can get a water brush that attaches to the hose the clean water and agitation of the brush is enough, then a rinse with a sprinkler is best practice.

 

[Russelliow]

I think it's bloody ridiculous that your not supposed to get these things wet. Cars and bike engines have been using oil seals for years why not fit them on these. My bikes currently at the lbs awaiting a new drive unit but I was warned Bosch may try to wriggle out of warranty due to water ingress.

 

[Gubbins]

I think the OP has a point about using power washers. It might be fair to say that its "common knowledge" not to use a power washer on a pedal bike, but over the years I have bought many bikes and never once been told that if I use a power washer to clean it I will invalidate a warranty. With a normal bike there isnt often a need for a power wash, but these powerful off road ebikes allow us to go where no one has gone before and get muddier than we ever though possible. I have tried a PW on the frame away from any bearings, but in the blink of am eye it removed one of the decals..
Of course there may be something in the information pack in the hundreds of pages in several languages, but being a bloke I dont need to read such things..

 

[argoose]

I think it's bloody ridiculous that your not supposed to get these things wet. Cars and bike engines have been using oil seals for years why not fit them on these. My bikes currently at the lbs awaiting a new drive unit but I was warned Bosch may try to wriggle out of warranty due to water ingress.

Totally agree, but it is a trade off sealing versus striction, and with cost cutting there is not a lot of grease in sealed bearings to start with.

 

[Ballynoes]

I have read quite a few posts about motor reliability on here, and being a bloke… I do read the manual (sad I know).

The manual says the motor is IP 54 rated. The first digit is for solids and the second is for water, going by the ratings, it’s protected against “Degree of protection IP 54 (dust and splash water protected)".

The splashing is the key here. If you want to use a pressure washer it would have to be IP 66, which is close to marine specifications.

As argoose says, using a pressure washer on any bike is not a good idea, let alone an Ebike.

I know it’s no consolation to those who use their Ebikes “the same way as an ordinary bike”, but as it has electrical components and an electrical motor, and a battery I use mine in a completely different way.

I wouldn’t charge through a long puddle or stream, I wouldn’t use any force of water anywhere near the electrical parts, and I clean it in a completely different way from my other bikes. They are expensive bikes, and if I look after it as much as I can it will last me longer. I honestly think Ebikes are not designed to do the same as an ordinary bike, despite what we read, and that’s what I use mine for, longer rides, longer climbs, but as for the really wet muddy stuff… I take another bike.

Until manufacturers come up with fully waterproof Ebikes, I will continue to do this, and even then “fully waterproof” is only in the name.

Doesn’t help Dario though, hopefully you will get it sorted without too much hassle.

 

[anotherkiwi]

IP67 on LCD and controller housing would be a great step forward.

 

[Dario Troiano]

I have read quite a few posts about motor reliability on here, and being a bloke… I do read the manual (sad I know).

The manual says the motor is IP 54 rated. The first digit is for solids and the second is for water, going by the ratings, it’s protected against “Degree of protection IP 54 (dust and splash water protected)".

The splashing is the key here. If you want to use a pressure washer it would have to be IP 66, which is close to marine specifications.

As argoose says, using a pressure washer on any bike is not a good idea, let alone an Ebike.

I know it’s no consolation to those who use their Ebikes “the same way as an ordinary bike”, but as it has electrical components and an electrical motor, and a battery I use mine in a completely different way.

I wouldn’t charge through a long puddle or stream, I wouldn’t use any force of water anywhere near the electrical parts, and I clean it in a completely different way from my other bikes. They are expensive bikes, and if I look after it as much as I can it will last me longer. I honestly think Ebikes are not designed to do the same as an ordinary bike, despite what we read, and that’s what I use mine for, longer rides, longer climbs, but as for the really wet muddy stuff… I take another bike.

Until manufacturers come up with fully waterproof Ebikes, I will continue to do this, and even then “fully waterproof” is only in the name.

Doesn’t help Dario though, hopefully you will get it sorted without too much hassle.

You raise a good point Ballynoes! i didn't get a manual for the motor when the bike was handed to me, and i doubt anybody on this forum did either. again, knowing the limitations of the go anywhere eMTB after the fact has not helped. Likely you had to go and seek this out on the inter web.

How this effects eMTB sales will be interesting if it becomes common knowledge that these things are not waterproof.

thanks for your thoughts regarding future warranty success.

PS has anybody with a road going bike with a Bosch mid drive suffered from the bearing failure or is it just mud pluggers?

 

[RobF]

You raise a good point Ballynoes! i didn't get a manual for the motor when the bike was handed to me, and i doubt anybody on this forum did either. again, knowing the limitations of the go anywhere eMTB after the fact has not helped. Likely you had to go and seek this out on the inter web.

How this effects eMTB sales will be interesting if it becomes common knowledge that these things are not waterproof.

thanks for your thoughts regarding future warranty success.

PS has anybody with a road going bike with a Bosch mid drive suffered from the bearing failure or is it just mud pluggers?

I suspect the failures are nearly all on mountain bikes used in muddy conditions.

No bother on my three Bosch bikes, but none do anything rougher than a cycle path.

 

[Ballynoes]

You are correct Dario,

I found the info on the internet after doing some research, mainly as to what motor I wanted and therefore what bike to buy. I was also lucky enough to see this forum long before I bought my bike, and therefore found out a few pitfalls before I hit them.

I agree that manufacturers should supply a “proper” manual for the bikes bought, although I am sure there is an internet reference in the paperwork I got when I bought mine, but as was said earlier, most don’t read manuals, and this is how the manufacturers get round all these failures.

I’m sure it’s just the same as insurance, no-one reads the small print until they have a claim.

Also interesting to note that the ones who just cycle along paths etc, don’t have many problems. As I suspect E-mountain bikes are not up the same “abuse” as a standard mountain bikes.


You don’t say how old your bike is and how long the warranty has to run, but I might be cheaper in the long run “screwing” the warranty and getting the bearings replaced at you expense…. Just a thought.

Hope you get it sorted.

 

[Russelliow]

I think it's bloody ridiculous that your not supposed to get these things wet. Cars and bike engines have been using oil seals for years why not fit them on these. My bikes currently at the lbs awaiting a new drive unit but I was warned Bosch may try to wriggle out of warranty due to water ingress.

Just to add, I have never pointed a jet wash or hose pipe directly at the front sprocket (read up on bikes whilst awaiting delivery) and the bike is stored in shed or garage . The only water contact is from puddles or from low pressure cleaning.
As much as I like my bike it does have design floors.
You can't tell me a 6inch travel full suspension bike is only ment to be ridden on clean tarmac.


Edit.
Just spoke to the bike shop and all is sorted and no mention of water ingress.

 

[Gubbins]

One has to consider, and I have said this many times on other threads, that people tend to assume that the normal everyday tasks to do with riding and maintaining an ebike are as obvious to everyone else as they are to you.
I will admit to not being the greenest banana in the bunch but I am no dummy either so imagine my surprise to find that my Bosch emtb has a flap that I can move to charge the battery in sittue!
This only came to light when I told a Cobi technition that I couldn't do this so he sent me a photo..
LOL? LOFL!

 

[Nealh]

Mud plugging use is fine usage for them, the spanner in the works is peeps like to clean them then get them dirty again.
So out comes the hose pipe or pressure cleaner, leave them a bit dirty brush of the worst loose crap give a wipe over with an oily rag and put them away as the next ride they will be in the same crappie state again.

Just don't let Eddie read this .

 

[EddiePJ]

Mud plugging use is fine usage for them, the spanner in the works is peeps like to clean them then get them dirty again.
So out comes the hose pipe or pressure cleaner, leave them a bit dirty brush of the worst loose crap give a wipe over with an oily rag and put them away as the next ride they will be in the same crappie state again.

Just don't let Eddie read this .

I find that cow and sheep poo from riding on the South Downs is the best way to preserve all mechanical components of a bike. The more that you collect, the harder that it is to remove, and the better protection that it affords.

 

[Dario Troiano]

You are correct Dario,

I found the info on the internet after doing some research, mainly as to what motor I wanted and therefore what bike to buy. I was also lucky enough to see this forum long before I bought my bike, and therefore found out a few pitfalls before I hit them.

I agree that manufacturers should supply a “proper” manual for the bikes bought, although I am sure there is an internet reference in the paperwork I got when I bought mine, but as was said earlier, most don’t read manuals, and this is how the manufacturers get round all these failures.

I’m sure it’s just the same as insurance, no-one reads the small print until they have a claim.

Also interesting to note that the ones who just cycle along paths etc, don’t have many problems. As I suspect E-mountain bikes are not up the same “abuse” as a standard mountain bikes.


You don’t say how old your bike is and how long the warranty has to run, but I might be cheaper in the long run “screwing” the warranty and getting the bearings replaced at you expense…. Just a thought.

Hope you get it sorted.

I'm still waiting for the outcome from Bosch. As to fixing it myself, i doubt it that difficult so long as i can get the bearing and that the bearing puller is not a super special thing.

i'm hoping for a positive outcome and then its all about trying to see how long it lasts after the warrant expires in November (2 years).

I do have a friend with a Scott eMTB and he had a motor exchange at 1050 miles and is at 2,500 mile and believes here heading in to the next bearing failure. He also admits to doing the grease and seal procedure too.

 

[hannesd]

He also admits to doing the grease and seal procedure too.[/QUOTE]

what procedure is this, adding extra grease? and a decent seal installation?
sounds good to me! tell me more...

 

[soundwave]

http://www.pro-cycling-golla.de/Motor_und_Zubehoer/Service-Kit_Lagerschutzring_Zur_Abdeckung_der_Lagerstelle_der_Antriebseinheit_artikel582b57b18a5a6.html

 

[hannesd]

ok thanks, but this only applies to the bosch motors?
is there something similar i can do to the impulse motor?
but as i see it, this grease acts more like an aditional seal rather then to lubricate the internals of the motor?

 

[soundwave]

it wont matter what you do as it will brake that motor is not fit for purpose
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/ongoing-reliability-of-kalkhoff-focus-impulse-2-motors.24290/

 

[Gubbins]

http://www.pro-cycling-golla.de/Motor_und_Zubehoer/Service-Kit_Lagerschutzring_Zur_Abdeckung_der_Lagerstelle_der_Antriebseinheit_artikel582b57b18a5a6.html

A brexit one here..
https://www.allterraincycles.co.uk/bosch-bearing-protection-ring-service-kit