Alien Kit vs Alien bike

Trying to decide which bike to get I am now seriously thinking of getting the 36v 250w 26" Road Legal Kit from Alien. I would install this on my Dawes Acuma MB. The idea is to let me get a feel and some experience of assisted biking without spending too much and if I find it is OK to then get a more expensive ready made, aimed more at road use. I would probably then keep the Alien conversion for a bit of fun on the tracks, as where I live in Norfolk I am surrounded by them.

Any thoughts on this strategy would be welcome but my main question is that the Alien Gents special bike isn't that much more expensive than the kit, so I am assuming that the bike side can't be too good, but maybe it is. What would you do, convert the Dawes or buy the Alien bike? (I am handy so the actual conversion is not an issue)

 

Pete

I purchased the 36V Alien kit & put it onto a half decent mountain bike - works great & no issues.

Hi I purchased one of these just before they went up i.e at £399 and fitted it to my MTB.

 

See full post here

 

Whilst I agree they work great its quite traumatic fitting it all to an existing bike in terms of making sure your forks are going to be ok etc. Also you might want to fit a torque arm for peace of mind though not technically necessary. Don't get me wrong I enjoyed the challenge and learnt a lot about ebikes doing it.

 

For a best value working solution I think if you have a bike and are happy to fit it then a kit is probably the way to go. If you don't have a bike then the Alien Special II does look quite good, but for that sort of price perhaps you should look at some alternate ready built ebikes too. I ended up picking up a S/H Cytronex for just a little more than that, though my commute is only 10 miles return. I have since sold the kit.

 

I guess it depends what you want. The kit has a decent battery and the motor has plenty of pull.

 

Regards

 

Jerry

Edited October 29, 200916 yr by jerrysimon

hi tubaman,

what speed and distance do you get out of your kit, is it a 250 and how old is it.

thanks mapman.

I easily got 17-18 mph (note 15mph is the legal limit) on the flat with mine and could have turned up the restricter further.

 

I think I could have got 15-20 miles on the flat with throttle only no pedaling. My commute was 10 miles return only so never actually ran it down. Any pedal effort would likely signicantly increase this.

 

Its a good all round kit in terms of power and battery life.

 

Regards

 

Jerry

Edited October 29, 200916 yr by jerrysimon

To Mapman:

 

Purchased kit in January 2009 (had it professionally fitted to be honest) - get 17-18mph de-restricted and I weight circa 19.5 stones !!

 

Really impressed with the power of the 250watt motor/battery combination. The front hub motor looks particularly attractive.

Thanks for the responses everyone. Since I posted I have had an email from Jim at Alien who amongst other things says "The bike freewheels but the kit does not."

I am not quite sure what is meant by that. To me a bike that has no freewheel means that the pedals always turn when the bike is moving, but as the motor is fitted to the front hub and no changes to the back of the bike, what does it mean in relation to this.? I have a feeling that this is a really daft question!

I think it's to do with how the motor behaves in a different way when it's not being powered - perhaps it disengages the gears.

 

I know they are using a different version of the bafang motor in the bike vs the kit which apparently has lower rolling resistance.

 

The other interesting feature of the bike is that the controller is now mounted within the rear rack - much neater than the bag they used to use.

 

I asked a month ago if the kit would be upgraded to use the same components as the bike. The response I got was not for some time (presume they want to sell the old stock first).

The freewheel referred to is in the motor. The motor on the kits must now be permanently engaged.

You would still have a freewheel on the pedals.

Thanks Pedalo, Andrew.

I think I get it now. So really what it amounts to is that without power the 'Kit' bike would be harder to pedal? Going back to my original post in this thread it probably means the complete bike is a better proposition than the kit, given the difference in price being so small.

Hi I purchased one of these just before they went up i.e at £399 and fitted it to my MTB.

 

See full post here

 

Whilst I agree they work great its quite traumatic fitting it all to an existing bike in terms of making sure your forks are going to be ok etc. Also you might want to fit a torque arm for peace of mind though not technically necessary. Don't get me wrong I enjoyed the challenge and learnt a lot about ebikes doing it.

 

For a best value working solution I think if you have a bike and are happy to fit it then a kit is probably the way to go. If you don't have a bike then the Alien Special II does look quite good, but for that sort of price perhaps you should look at some alternate ready built ebikes too. I ended up picking up a S/H Cytronex for just a little more than that, though my commute is only 10 miles return. I have since sold the kit.

 

I guess it depends what you want. The kit has a decent battery and the motor has plenty of pull.

 

Regards

 

Jerry

 

I read through your other thread Jerry and must say your bike looked very good and as you say the kit was discrete when on.

Just wondered how much the lack of a free wheel on the motor was a disadvantage, is it obvious, does it roll poorly with power off?

Well my kit converted bike rode fine without power. There was perhaps a little "drag" but not much that I noticed. The kit was quite discrete looking but not silent. I guess its really down to what your looking for. The kit as I said has lots of power and is probably good if your cycle/commute is quite long and hilly.

 

I think the one on the Alien Special II has a better free wheel on it but I am currently using a Cytronex with a Tongxin motor, which are well known for their less friction/drag when freewheeling mainly in that they use metal rollers rather than the nylon gears. It suits my short 10 mile commute in a less hilly area of Cambridge where I live.

 

I didn't need the torque/power of the Bafang motor in the Alien kit or to carry such a large battery.

 

PS what you need to think about is how much assistance do you want ? If your looking for plenty of power and to choose to not cycle/pedal much then the kit is fine. For me I was happy to pedal more and the Cytronex rides like a real bike if I want and/or has power when I need it. Unlike the kit the Cytronex is not meant to take you off from a standing start your suppose to pedal first. The kit will start you off from standstill. For me it was a natural evolution from the Alienocean kit to the Cytronex. Although it probably cost me a little more (as I sold the kit for less than I purchased it), the experience was worth it as I gained more understanding of ebikes through the process and actually enjoyed the challenge of the DIY.

 

Regards

 

Jerry

Edited October 29, 200916 yr by jerrysimon

 

So really what it amounts to is that without power the 'Kit' bike would be harder to pedal?

 

Yes. The orbital gears are always engaged on either version since they mesh with the hubshell gear ring, so they must be turned when pedalling without power.

 

On the one with freewheel, that sits between the motor drive and the gears so the motor doesn't have to be turned as well by the pedals.

.

Edited October 29, 200916 yr by flecc

So Flecc the newer Bafang has this additional freewheel ?

 

Regards

 

Jerry

So Flecc the newer Bafang has this additional freewheel ?

 

Regards

 

Jerry

 

I'm sure it will have Jerry, the older ones usually did as well. Alien use more than one motor, supplying either brushed or brushless at times in the past. It may be that the one on the kit is a brush motor, possibly not made by Suzhou (Bafang).

.

If Dan is reading this perhaps he can comment on his new Bafang and the freewheel or not of that ?

 

PS I think we or should I say I am using wrong terminology :o

 

With the motor when off, then what we are talking about is the ease of turning the gears as shown in fleccs pics whilst they are fully engaged. As stated a proper freewheel would be the ability to bypass that completly with no resistance caused by the gears inside the motor having to turn. The problem is the term freewheel is sort of muddled up with when cycling and you stop pedaling i.e. freewheeling

 

Regards

 

Jerry

Edited October 29, 200916 yr by jerrysimon

Fully freewheeled hubs do exist, for example the long established Powabyke front hub motor has the freewheel between the orbital gear rack and the hub shell. It's a pawl arrangement and the clicking of the pawls can be heard when pedalling with power off, but of course they add no drag.

 

That's almost impossible to arrange in the modern compact hubs though, so the orbital gears have to be turned all the time.

.

Thank you Flecc for the reminder of "how things work" I'm away from my Bafang-powered e-Brompton at the moment, and I miss the "easy-peasy" hilly rides As for the "freewheel" questions...I can only comment on the perceivable drag compared to the Tongxin motor: it's there, but I don't care as I don't use my Brommie as a "normal" bike anymore. However the added weight and drag would be a problem if I had to cycle with human power only. Thus why I will be experimenting with the less intrusive Tongxin in my next project. Cheers, Dan

I agree Dan, I find pedalling Bafang types without power not a pleasant experience due to the drag of the gears. The Tongxin and full freewheel designs like the Powabyke are much better in that respect.

.

I bought an Alien Gents Special a month or two ago and the freewheel is poor. Of course it's not an issue if you are using power but it is very noticeable if you are not. Downhill speeds are limited to about 25mph in any case and the motor screams at this speed. I've got to say though that it is very good value for money for such a powerful and fully featured bike.

I bought an Alien Gents Special a month or two ago and the freewheel is poor. Of course it's not an issue if you are using power but it is very noticeable if you are not. Downhill speeds are limited to about 25mph in any case and the motor screams at this speed. I've got to say though that it is very good value for money for such a powerful and fully featured bike.

Is it the original or the special II you have? The latest (II) is supposed to have a better freewheel than the original.

Currently looking at the Alien Gents Special II myself, as a possible "try it and see" bike before committing big money on something better.

 

Am I right in thinking this video shows little to no drag in the motor freewheel, or am I misinterpreting?

 

 

Am I right in thinking this video shows little to no drag in the motor freewheel, or am I misinterpreting?

 

 

That drag is quite real in fact. The clue is in how quickly it stops at the end of the slowing phase. Spin a normal bike front wheel and the late slowing stages seem to take for ever before the wheel stops.

 

The real test though is pedalling without power on the road when any drag is very apparent. These Suzhou Bafang motors all have real orbital gear drag that makes bikes a bit unpleasant to cycle without power compared to a normal bike, and I speak from the experience of having owned three of these motors and riding others.

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...which is a concern for me as I continue to look for a kit that will fit my needs....where can the Tongxin motors be bought? Are there any kits available based on them?

 

Many thanks....

That drag is quite real in fact. The clue is in how quickly it stops at the end of the slowing phase. Spin a normal bike front wheel and the late slowing stages seem to take for ever before the wheel stops.

 

The real test though is pedalling without power on the road when any drag is very apparent. These Suzhou Bafang motors all have real orbital gear drag that makes bikes a bit unpleasant to cycle without power compared to a normal bike, and I speak from the experience of having owned three of these motors and riding others.

.

 

I'm still learning about these machines and that's worth knowing, thanks.

 

Another point in favour of the Panasonic/Yamaha crank motors then, they sound like they'd be more pleasant to ride unassisted than hub bikes?