Agattu endurance

[LazyViking]

Coming to the end of it's second winter season my Agattu, while holding out well, is unfortunately beginning to show it's age/milage. This year it had a really tough winter.

Faults when new:
* chain tensioner not working. Spring was pinched between bolt and motor block by dealer.

Problems during first year:
* motor assembly wobbled from side to side. Solved by tightning bolts to frame.
* chain guard broke.
* chain broke at ca. 2330 miles.
* during winter brake blocks need regular replacements.
* hydraulic brake leak (Magura brakes fitted by dealer).
* battery begins to show signs of age.
* salt corroded copper strips in rear mudguard causing rear light failure. Replaced with two core cable direct to rear light.
* stand broke twice. Eventually replaced with solid stand.

Problems during year two:
* battery terminals corroded by salt causing power failure. Solved by scraping away corrosion. Battery display on handlebars incorrect now.
* spokes are starting to "pull through" rim on back wheel. Salt damage.
* brakes rubbing rims when not applied. Salt has corroded slave cylinders so they do not return to rest position.
* rust on shock absorber and luggage carrier parts (not stainless).
* chain broke again at ca. 3340 miles. Only lasted 1000 miles.
* rear light is eating batteries.

I'm going to replace chain wheels and sprockets (for the first time!), fit new Magura brakes and give the bike a good going over when the salt season comes to an end and I hope it will be almost like new.

Total costs so far are about 80p per mile.

Questions:
* do chains last longer on new chain wheels and sprockets?
* any disadvantages with stainless steel chains other than cost? shorter lifespan?

Thanks for all the support I've received from the forum.

Regards,
--Lazyviking

 

[Lloyd]

Sounds like she's had a good life!

It is a good idea to replace the drivetrain in its entirety at this age tbh. Sounds like you already know but make sure you do the whole lot tegether. Chain, motor sprocket, hub sprocket and chainwheel. The chain and all sprockets wear together. On the wear front some people swear that replacing the chain regularly (every 6 months or more frequently if high mileage) helps extend the sprocket life, others say it's a load of old pugwash. I form the view of the latter and have always run my drivetrains into the ground before replacing the whole lot. The key factor that usually shortens chain/sprocket life is over-lubrication. Thick, gloopy lube applied liberally coats the chain and acts like a magnet for dirt and grit, turning your chain into a grinding paste. The easy way to tell is if you run your finger down your chain you shouldn't get a black mark on it! Also if you grab the chain about 3-4 inches apart and twist it side to side it shouldn't make a crunching sound. If it does it is full of grit/salt/sand and will wear quickly. I use plain old gt85 or Finish line dry lube (the red top NOT green!). Halfords chain wax is actually quite good stuff to, I have used that when stuck. The trick is using thinner lubes with teflon in them, and wiping the excess lube off the chain once you have applied it. The lube only needs to be in the chain links, not plastered all over it!

With your Maguras it is worth getting them serviced, the pistons sticking is not unheard of in the mtb circles, and when I used to be a magura service centre we simply stripped them down and cleaned the seals with brake fluid (make sure u use mineral fluid in these NOT DOT! ). Of course if someone has used DOT in them then this would also cause them to stick as DOT eats away at the seals and causes them to expand. Even if it needs new seals a full strip down service will cost less than new brakes (I am guessing these are hs11 or 33's?). Make sure you use a proper Magura service agent, getting someone who is not correctly trained sticking their nose in could wind up expensive!

As for stainless chains they are mainly used because they are durable, look good and don't corrode. Very popular with commuters etc. We used to sell loads when I was down south as the salt and sand destroyed drivetrains quicker down there! They are heavy though.......

Which ever chain you go for make sure it has the modern split links (or just dont use a split link) as the 3 plate variety catches on Panasonic motor sprockets/ guide wheels.

Hope that is of some help!

 

[timidtom]

Coming to the end of it's second winter season my Agattu, while holding out well, is unfortunately beginning to show it's age/milage. This year it had a really tough winter.

Faults when new:
* chain tensioner not working. Spring was pinched between bolt and motor block by dealer.

Problems during first year:
* motor assembly wobbled from side to side. Solved by tightning bolts to frame.
* chain guard broke.
* chain broke at ca. 2330 miles.
* during winter brake blocks need regular replacements.
* hydraulic brake leak (Magura brakes fitted by dealer).
* battery begins to show signs of age.
* salt corroded copper strips in rear mudguard causing rear light failure. Replaced with two core cable direct to rear light.
* stand broke twice. Eventually replaced with solid stand.

Problems during year two:
* battery terminals corroded by salt causing power failure. Solved by scraping away corrosion. Battery display on handlebars incorrect now.
* spokes are starting to "pull through" rim on back wheel. Salt damage.
* brakes rubbing rims when not applied. Salt has corroded slave cylinders so they do not return to rest position.
* rust on shock absorber and luggage carrier parts (not stainless).
* chain broke again at ca. 3340 miles. Only lasted 1000 miles.
* rear light is eating batteries.

I'm going to replace chain wheels and sprockets (for the first time!), fit new Magura brakes and give the bike a good going over when the salt season comes to an end and I hope it will be almost like new.

Total costs so far are about 80p per mile.

Regards,
--Lazyviking

Does this mean the Powabykes are tho only breed likely to survive for five years or longer???

 

[lemmy]

Total costs so far are about 80p per mile.

That's interesting, my Peugeot 207 diesel comes out at about 62p per mile including depreciation and all.

Makes you realise how expensive electric biking can be. (I have a Kalkhoff too).

And yes, I know there are cheaper electric bikes

 

[HarryB]

Are you really saying that it has cost you over £2600? I am assuming that you are including the cost of the bike as well.You still have a bike that is worth £600-700 if you want to sell which isn't too bad. However I am struggling to see how you have spent well over £1000 on repairs/improvements.

My advice is that you should run a hose over it more often in the winter months - the salt is a killer. You will probably need to replace both sets of wheel rims as well, they will be shot by now. Maybe go far a disc braked bike next time as the pads should last longer and you avoid the rim problems.

 

[Cyclezee]

To keep it short and sweet, after 2 years 4 months and over 5000 miles, my wave frame Agattu has performed brilliantly.
If only everything was as reliable as an Agattu

J hn

 

[lemmy]

I'd say the high per mile cost is most likely a function of the low mileages one does on a bike, so that the low cost of the 'fuel', ie electricity to recharge the battery, does not have a chance to influence heavily the overall costs.

If I did only 2000 miles per annum in my modern diesel car, the running costs would seem extraordinarily high.

 

[tangent]

How is the battery holding out on these Kalkhoffs? Battery costs are the one thing that puts me off them, particularly as LiFePO4 looks as though it might be taking over which may push the official battery price even higher.

 

[Cyclezee]

My Agattu 2 year old battery covered 4,500 miles and was down from 5 leds or 10 amps to 4 leds or 8 mps after charging.
It had given excellent performance during that time. I did have to replace mounting plate contacts due to corrosion/pitting which cured intermittent cutting out.
However this returned and I assumed the battery internal contacs were also corroded. Despite the battery being about a month out of warranty, 50cycles collected the battery and sent me a brand new one FOC. The contact plate was also replaced FOC. Brilliant service from an excellent company.

J hn

 

[flecc]

These Panasonic batteries seem be be sailing past two years without any difficulty and will probably last much longer in most cases.

Panasonic were about the first to ever use lithium batteries on e-bikes, and 50cycles have a Panasonic "Will" e-folder with lithium battery which was still running ok at over five years old last year. Clearly they know a thing or two about making these batteries.
.

 

[LazyViking]

Cheap?

Are you really saying that it has cost you over £2600? I am assuming that you are including the cost of the bike as well.

I've used the Easter break as an oppertunity to fix my e-bikes. The Agattu has now got new brakes, cogs/chain and a good clean. It looks and feels like a new bike. The dynamo wiring was past it's useful life so I replaced it with some heavy duty stuff too.

I've added my latest purchases to my spreadsheet and my running costs are now over £1 per mile!

Bicycle €1800
3 spare batteries €1350
Maintainance €490
Accessories €160
------------------------
TOTAL €3850 or £3400
===================

Maintainance is parts only and includes winter tyres (€100), 5 sets of brake blocks (€100), 2 stands, sprockets, 3 chains and brake cyliners. I fit all the bits myself.

Of course a lot of this "investment" is not written off. The bike is not dead yet, and batteries will probably outlive the bike. I am sure it would be considerably cheaper to get a bus pass though! But who wants to take a bus when they can ride past the lycra crowd on their e-bike?

I'm sure my costs would be much lower if I let the bike sit in the shed during the winter months.

Costs I've not included are:
Wear and tear on all weather clothing.
Magicshine bicycle lamp
Loss of interest on invested capital.
Time I spend maintaining the bicycle or paying someone else to do it.
Costs of tools in my bike workshop.

As regards the quality of Kalkhoff bikes, I can mention that I bought a mountain bike for £800 a few years back. It didn't even manage 1000 miles of winter cycling. The Kalkhoff bikes are great.

 

[tillson]

I was just wondering why you have 3 spare (4 in total?) batteries. Do you have a long way to go, to and from work?

 

[rog_london]

I suspect that most cyclists and e-bikers would give themselves a shock if they worked out the true financial cost per mile.

A bike requires considerable mechanical 'sympathy' as well as knowledge. The sympathy bit is probably the most important part, and just one example among many is that gear changing systems do not respond favourably to being operated with the power on, i.e. full weight on the pedals. Doing so can reduce the lifetime of the whole drive train by a quantum leap.

I find it irritating when manufacturers tout the 'greenness' of e-biking and quote the running cost as just a few pence per mile for battery charging - conveniently forgetting depreciation and wear and tear (especially the battery).

Whether it works out cheaper than many other forms of transport is something the owner has to consider for himself. Not many of us do huge mileages and many don't ride at all in bad weather (including November to April).

Even to commute you need to have the right journey to make it worth while - if you've got to negotiate steep hills or busy and dangerous main roads, quite apart from the journey being too far to walk but not too far to ride there and back within battery range. Then the bike has to be parked safely when you get where you're going, and anything expensive (which includes most e-bikes) can be a worry. Not all employers are 'bike friendly' or have the space for any kind of parking.

I'm sure we all suspect as much! The real point of course is that it's a fun pastime where you get exercise while enjoying the experience, and not everyone wants to tackle rush hour in all weathers.

If you live somewhere flat where all main roads have cycle paths and underpasses - one of the reasons for living in Stevenage I'm told - that must be an enormous help to commuters and is a powerful incentive to others to use a bike - powered or not - for routine local travel. In spite of all the hype from the mayor and the department of transport it's not going to happen in London anytime soon. Making driving ever more expensive won't wean people off their cars - it's noticeable that even the financially challenged *have* to run a car (even if they stop short of bothering to buy insurance), and the huge tax on tobacco doesn't put people off smoking.

The Dutch take full advantage of their flat lands - it's the only non-third-world country as far as I know which is really into cycling. I've always had a huge admiration for that nation as they manage to approach almost everything they do differently, and generally with great success. Here, environmental issues such as using 'sensible' means of transport are merely a political tool and of little interest to 'real' people.

Rog.

 

[HarryB]

I've used the Easter break as an oppertunity to fix my e-bikes. The Agattu has now got new brakes, cogs/chain and a good clean. It looks and feels like a new bike. The dynamo wiring was past it's useful life so I replaced it with some heavy duty stuff too.

I've added my latest purchases to my spreadsheet and my running costs are now over £1 per mile!

Bicycle €1800
3 spare batteries €1350
Maintainance €490
Accessories €160
------------------------
TOTAL €3850 or £3400
===================

Maintainance is parts only and includes winter tyres (€100), 5 sets of brake blocks (€100), 2 stands, sprockets, 3 chains and brake cyliners. I fit all the bits myself.

Of course a lot of this "investment" is not written off. The bike is not dead yet, and batteries will probably outlive the bike. I am sure it would be considerably cheaper to get a bus pass though! But who wants to take a bus when they can ride past the lycra crowd on their e-bike?

I'm sure my costs would be much lower if I let the bike sit in the shed during the winter months.

Costs I've not included are:
Wear and tear on all weather clothing.
Magicshine bicycle lamp
Loss of interest on invested capital.
Time I spend maintaining the bicycle or paying someone else to do it.
Costs of tools in my bike workshop.

As regards the quality of Kalkhoff bikes, I can mention that I bought a mountain bike for £800 a few years back. It didn't even manage 1000 miles of winter cycling. The Kalkhoff bikes are great.

I would hate anybody to be put off by some of these figures so a back of the envelop calculation I make it 44p a mile which is probably more realistic figure (incidentally it is exactly the same amount as London transport charge for my journey to and from work.

Having just sold my Cytronex and allowing for £500 for maintenance and interest over 18 months (I don't think it is that much but I cannot be bothered to work it out exactly) I can tell you it cost me 28p a mile. Probably a more realistic figure for most people.

 

[lemmy]

Here, environmental issues such as using 'sensible' means of transport are merely a political tool and of little interest to 'real' people.

I'm not convinced that what we regard in a somewhat 'knee-jerk' way as environmentally sound always is.

First of all, I find it hard to believe that burning coal/ oil or whatever to make electrical power, transmitting it many miles and then storing it rather inefficiently in an expensive, unrecyclable battery can be more efficacious than simply pouring diesel into a car and burning it.

Second, my small diesel car carried 5 people 278 miles each way on one tank of fuel last summer - a cost of less than £40. *I think that is far more efficient than those 5 people making the journey on electric bikes, even if it were practical.

Thirdly, the car will last for 7 years on average without major expense if driven sensibly and with a little luck, ten years. Costed overall, I'd be surprised if that was not cheaper both financially and environmentally than with any electric vehicle.

I ride my electric bike for sound reasons of my own but I don't kid myself that its for the environment. Given the cost of maintenance, the bikes, the parts and the relatively limited life of the electrical components I'd have thought they were a pretty poor deal economically and environmentally.

I use mine because it suits me and I can make my regular trips in and out of central London to my own timetable and with greater convenience. If a car were easier (it isn't!) I'd use that. And yes, I know I've simplified the argument and that diesel has to be delivered to the garage.

I find I'm able to make a good argument pro e-bike too but the argument against is much more interesting.

 

[Cyclezee]

HarryB's figures are very close to mine.

A quick breakdown of the costs for Kalkhoff Agattu bought in November 2007 gave me the following:

• Purchase price £1,175
• replacement, consumable and upgrade parts supplied by me. Magura hydraulic brakes, brake pads, chain, M+ tyres, mudguards, chain lube, rear sprocket. All for under £150
• Total £1,325 divided by 5,000 miles = 26.5p per mile (I have not included the cost of electricity in these figures, but I would assume that cost to be negligable)

And the bike still has a second hand value whatever that might be, this brings me to the conclusion that it is considerably cheaper than using public transport..............unless you have a bus pass

J hn

 

[Straylight]

I think it's wrong to think of environmental benefit and cost at the same time as if the two were related. Wind power, one of the cleanest ways of producing electricity, is also one of the most expensive, particularly in terms of initial outlay. Hence the powers that be are planning more nuclear power generation, despite still having no clue about what to do with the spent fuel rods etc.. I suppose the argument here would be that the environmental contamination is a local one as opposed to global . I am pleased though about the recent provision for future offshore wind development, and that Siemens have decided to start manufacturing turbines here in the east, so maybe the future is not so bleak.

Another flaw in the car vs bike debate is one of the physical mass of the vehicles, and the amount of energy required to recycle them at the end of their working life, with the average car weighing in at around 1.5 tons, and being far more contaminated with oils and plastics, the difference is huge.

Ultimately, I think it comes down to an individual debate about how much people value their comfort and convenience in the medium term vs how much they value the planet (including its ever decreasing biodiversity). The necessary transition from a fossil fuel based system will not be comfortable or cheap, but in my view the rewards will be priceless and well beyond our petty, imaginary, deeply flawed economic system.

 

[robert44]

The necessary transition from a fossil fuel based system

To what? Other than nucleur power, there is no present alternative for our energy requirements. Present wind,sea or solar ideas will only ever generate a fraction of our energy needs. Until someone comes up with a new energy source we had better hope that fossil fueled and nucleur energy doesn't run out.

 

[flecc]

Yes, I'm entirely with robert44 on this, we have to be realistic and face the facts.
.

 

[lemmy]

The central problem with wind and solar power is that its availability does not coincide with the population's use of it. So in practise you have to have full back-up power. Since you can't turn power stations on and off instantaneously, they have to run all the time. That's about as sensible as putting two engines in a car, one petrol, one electric and saying it's eco-friendly.

The figures for the efficiency of wind power are frightening, in many cases never bettering 7% of full capacity.

Nuclear will plainly be the only way - the French get 80% of their energy from it without undue problems. And since they are the ones with the expertise, it'll likely be them who build, run and in the case of EDF own them too.

I used to live not too far from La Ronce in Brittany,the only industrial size tidal power station in Europe (maybe the world). That's been in action since 1966. The tides there are exceptionally high and there have been ecological and silting problems - it's not been copied anywhere, so I can only assume it is not the future.

As Flecc says, we have to face the facts. It's a pity the UK couldn't have planned for the future, though, rather than having to be dragged into it kicking and screaming.