Advice on Cheap Option

[FrodoBaggins]

Hello Everyone

Maybe you can help me with my latest dilemma.
I admit I am bit obsessed with bikes and specs and E-bikes even worse. I love just browsing here and Youtube for every type of bike and option.

So sadly due to having Epilepsy I am continually losing my driving license, so cycling is really my only affordable option for quick trips around.
I actually have an ebike which is an Oxygen City, its pretty old now, but works well, its just damn heavy and also I feel a little embarrassed on it as it doesn't look great (IMHO)
I might donate that to my old man

I want a bike that I can just get around on over short distances (max 10 miles round trip)
But most importantly I want something that isnt overly desirable to pinch, hence I am keen to keep the costs right down and removable components are a must.
I have to leave it places as I have no choice.

I would love to build my own out of an old mtb or even grab a cheapo off eBay but I am lost with such a multitude of kit choices.
I am OK at DIY but not really a bike technician and all this filing of dropouts and Heath Robinson stuff doesn't appeal to me.
I am quite fit (174cms and 70Kg) and dont really need an Ebike, but want one, just so I am not always sweating and knackered.

I am happy with a front wheel motor as I hear these are easiest to install as I shall not be climbing too many hills, so in conclusion it needs the following:

1. Simple to build (if I go down the route of self build)
2. Cheap, ideally under £700 (second hand is fine)
3. Easily removable battery
4. Range can be quite low and I dont care about it doing 30mph, legal is fine!
5. Looks as much like a normal bike as possible

So far I have been quite interested in the Gtech bikes, maybe .a second hand one would be good or there is an option called Swytch, which looks cool but seems to have a lot of bad press around customer service! But its cheap and can be removed, and just looks like a normal bike with a front pannier

I would happily buy a ready made self build off ebay but I also have a BoardmanComp 2014 mountain bike that gets minimal use that i could convert if I could find a decent kit thats easy to fit
In fact I would love to do that, but dont want to waste money!

So lots of questions here, any help is much appreciated!

Thanks in advanced!

 

[vfr400]

If you don't like the idea of filing drop-outs, you can forget about a front-motor kit. I've never found one that can be installed without filing. You could always be lucky with a particular set of forks. The motor axles are exactly 10mm, so you can test with a 10mm block, but even if it goes in, it might not go in deep enough because the motor axle is 12mm deep and a larger diameter than the arc at the top of the drop-out, which shifts the centre about 2mm down.

Also steel forks are advisable for a front motor.

 

[Woosh]

I'd suggest the XF07 on the Boardman for your weight.

http://wooshbikes.co.uk/cart/#/product/uid-192-xf07kit-13ah/xf07-front-hub-kit-with-13ah-battery

or XF08C:

http://wooshbikes.co.uk/cart/#/product/uid-121-xf08c-13ah/xf08c-rear-hub-kit-with-13ah-battery

Easy to fit, light and quiet.
you would get about 40 miles on a full charge with the 13AH battery on the Boardman.

 

[KirstinS]

I have the xf07 (supplied by Woosh as it happens )

I have been very impressed with it, beyond expectations and it really does sip power compared to anything I've ever owned

So a plus one from me for that motor

 

[KirstinS]

Ahh. Unless you want to deretrict it for more speed. You can do that via the LCD but in practice expect no more than 1 or 2 mph

 

[FrodoBaggins]

Thanks everyone thats really useful, I think that front wheel drive whoosh kit looks good.
Would it fit on my boardman without a massive stress, should I get front or back wheel hub.

Like I said before I just want as little stress as possible regarding fitting, but would be great to use my own bike and save me having to use even more space in my garage,

 

[Benjahmin]

The Boardman, I believe, is alloy forks. Any filing would be minimal. There would probably be a little metal to remove on the depth, and width would be mostly paint. You would need to fit a torque bracket, I've used these, they're good ;

Torque Arm for e-bike Heavy-Duty 3mm Thick Stainless Steel,14x10mm,electric bike | eBay

Find great deals for Torque Arm for e-bike Heavy-Duty 3mm Thick Stainless Steel,14x10mm,electric bike. Shop with confidence on eBay!

www.ebay.co.uk

Maybe Woosh would supply kit minus battery, then you could get a rack battery from Yosepower. This means the battery would slide out so you could take it with you when you leave the bike. From personal experience, good customer service and quick supply from Berlin.

For stealth looks a rear hub would be better, slightly hidden by the gears and brake disc, though most people think that a front hub is a huge dynamo, if they look at all.

 

[vfr400]

There's absolutely no advantage to a front motor for a bike with derailleur gears, but there are plenty of disadvantages. Yes, it can be done if you do it right, but why would you want to?

 

[Woosh]

There's absolutely no advantage to a front motor for a bike with derailleur gears, but there are plenty of disadvantages.

1. front motor is lighter.
2. front motor is easier to remove.
3. front motor has 100mm dropout as standard. Rear dropout is usually 135mm but can be 140mm or even 145mm, so you have to re-arrange the anti torque washers if it's not spot on. There may be a case when you take the wheel out and put it back on, you can't remember where the fat anti torque washers go, inside or outside the frame?
4. Never get a broken spoke, or nearly never. The motor is heavy and much larger than a normal hub, plus there is dishing with hub motor. The net effect is broken spokes occur more with motor wheels than normal wheels. The front motor has less weight put on it and no dishing, when you hit a pothole, you don't get as much compression and no asymetric compression as you would if the motor is at the rear. The compression is the main cause of breaking the neck of the spokes.

 

[Nealh]

The Suntour forks have a meaty drop out so there is less chance of metal fatigue but I would be inclined to still fit a TA to reduce metal stress, though you will still have to file the drop out 2 -3 mm deeper as the hub axle is 12mm compared to the standard QR 9mm. Those extra few mm allow the nut to sit centrally when tightened and to allow the tabbed of the washers (Anti rotation) to sit in the drop out fully.

 

[vfr400]

1. front motor is lighter.
2. front motor is easier to remove.
3. front motor has 100mm dropout as standard. Rear dropout is usually 135mm but can be 140mm or even 145mm, so you have to re-arrange the anti torque washers if it's not spot on. There may be a case when you take the wheel out and put it back on, you can't remember where the fat anti torque washers go, inside or outside the frame?
4. Never get a broken spoke, or nearly never. The motor is heavy and much larger than a normal hub, plus there is dishing with hub motor. The net effect is broken spokes occur more with motor wheels than normal wheels. The front motor has less weight put on it and no dishing, when you hit a pothole, you don't get as much compression and no asymetric compression as you would if the motor is at the rear. The compression is the main cause of breaking the neck of the spokes.

Seems a bit tunnel vision to me.
1. Any difference in weight is basically 35mm of 12mm steel bar with its sides shaved off. cassette motors are normally lighter than their equivalent fronts because they're narrower.
2. Both motors involve two 12mm nuts to remove, though any DIY conversion should have a torque arm on the front that adds quite a bit to wheel removal. The additional work to remove a back wheel is two 12mm nuts instead of QR. Yes it's more complicated to removal a back wheel, but that's the same whether you have a motor or not. You don't have to take out a rear wheel with a motor any more than you would without a motor.
3. front forks can be 100mm, 85mm and 75mm. They're not just 100mm.
I'd say that front forks are more likely not to be 100mm than a rear is 135mm.
4. Dishing is a problem with rear motors with disc brakes, especially cassette ones. That's one slight disadvantage of rear motors.
5. broken spokes is not an issue of motor type. It comes from over-weight riders on pooly built wheels. that can happen whether you have a motor or not. it's true that it's more prevalent on rear wheels. it's not a problem on properly built wheels otherwise you wouldn't be able to sell any Rios. How many come back for spoke repairs?

You have to balance that against the disadvantages of a front motor.
A. You can't have high torque without special strong forks.
B. You need torque arms even on low powered ones, which you wouldn't need on a rear motor. That complicates wheel removal.
C. They interfere with the bike's general handling.
D. They can cause the drop-outs to break at any random time, which results in a face plant. That makes an expensive repair too. You can also break your drop-outs during installation if you don't file them deeper to get the axle central or use eccentric washers, which hardly any kits provide.
E. They're noisier (apparent to the rider).
F. They can't get sufficient traction on steep hills, which is not only a bit inconvenient, but the spinning wears out your tire really quickly too.

 

[Woosh]

You have to balance that against the disadvantages of a front motor.
A. You can't have high torque without special strong forks.
B. You need torque arms even on low powered ones, which you wouldn't need on a rear motor. That complicates wheel removal.
C. They interfere with the bike's general handling.
D. They can cause the drop-outs to break at any random time, which results in a face plant. That makes an expensive repair too. You can also break your drop-outs during installation if you don't file them deeper to get the axle central or use eccentric washers, which hardly any kits provide.
E. They're noisier (apparent to the rider).
F. They can't get sufficient traction on steep hills, which is not only a bit inconvenient, but the spinning wears out your tire really quickly too.

Just google 'e-bike with front hub motor'
Check out 20, 30, etc. 100 models bikes with front hub motors then tell me which ones have torque arms?
There is none.
I should rest my case there, but I don't dismiss the role of torque arms when the motor is heavy. You should check out all the pictures of broken fork jaws and the size of their attached motors.
Find me one picture of a motor the size of the XF07 breaking a fork. I bet you can't

 

[vfr400]

Just google 'e-bike with front hub motor'
Check out 20, 30, etc. 100 models bikes with front hub motors then tell me which ones have torque arms?
There is none.
I should rest my case there, but I don't dismiss the role of torque arms when the motor is heavy. You should check out all the pictures of broken fork jaws and the size of their attached motors.
Find me one picture of a motor the size of the XF07 breaking a fork. I bet you can't

Manufactured bikes have drop-outs that fit the motor axles, and they choose suitable forks. DIY conversions have random forks, most of which are not suitable.

While I think of it, I forgot to mention that you also have the problem where there's insufficient clearance between the forks for the motor because either the drop-outs are not the most inboard point or the shape of the forks is just wrong. I bet you've had one or two complaints about that.

 

[Woosh]

While I think of it, I forgot to mention that you also have the problem where there's insufficient clearance between the forks for the motor because either the drop-outs are not the most inboard point or the shape of the forks is just wrong. I bet you've had one or two complaints about that.

yes, about the shape of the fork but I did solve that particular problem with a 2mm washer.
the thing is the word torque arm is misleading.
next time you see an old fork at the tip, try to break its jaws with torque. I bet you hurt your hand before busting the jaws, even with your longest 10mm spanner. Make sure you bolt the wheel sufficiently to keep the washers properly located before torquing the motor axle.

If you plot the power produced by the motor from stalling (zero) to reaching 15mph versus time, nowhere on the plot would you see more than 150W, certainly not near the stalling/starting point. Now consider a projectile weighing 4kgs (the XF07 wheel) hitting a kerb like a hammer to the anvil, that's p=m*v for you, you can see why the weight is important. it could rip the jaws*.

The torque arms should be called 'linear momentum (pothole) resistors' instead.

*a rear motor would suffer just the same if not worse.

 

[vfr400]

yes, about the shape of the fork but I did solve that particular problem with a 2mm washer.
the thing is the word torque arm is misleading.
next time you see an old fork at the tip, try to break its jaws with torque. I bet you hurt your hand before busting the jaws, even with your longest 10mm spanner. Make sure you bolt the wheel sufficiently to keep the washers properly located before torquing the motor axle.

If you plot the power produced by the motor from stalling (zero) to reaching 15mph versus time, nowhere on the plot would you see more than 150W, certainly not near the stalling/starting point. Now consider a projectile weighing 4kgs (the XF07 wheel) hitting a kerb like a hammer to the anvil, that's p=m*v for you, you can see why the weight is important. it could rip the jaws*.

The torque arms should be called 'linear momentum (pothole) resistors' instead.

*a rear motor would suffer just the same if not worse.

That's true, but the problem is not just the strength, it's metal fatigue. The constant on/off of the torque will eventually crack the drop-outs.

I've seen four sets of broken drop-outs with my own eyes. One of them was on one of my bikes that had a properly installed BPM with two sets of torque arms. I didn't even know that anything had happened until i took the motor out to find that both drop-outs had the fronts cracked off. only the torque arms were holding the wheel on, which shows their benefit. Another one, again a BPM, I saw the guy go over the bars right in front of me when his popped. He had a single torque arm. Another one I saw was when the guy didn't file his drop-outs deep enough to centre the axle so the nut didn't clear the edge of the dimple. When he tightened the nut, it popped the front off the drop-out. The last was one of those cheap DD motors that a guy had installed in his normal forks. It lasted about two miles apparently. he didn't know about torque arms.

You must have seen all these sort of things too.

 

[Woosh]

One of them was on one of my bikes that had a properly installed BPM with two sets of torque arms.

how much does your BPM motor weigh? 5kgs? The XF07 weighs 2.8kgs. That makes all the difference with acceleration/deceleration, F=m*a for you, the cause of metal fatigue.
Your fork failed not because of the 50-55NM maximum torque, it fails overtime because with or without torque arms, something like a Rockshox is not designed for 5kgs of unsprung weight on its jaws. Just look at the design of hammer cheeks and handles. They are designed to cope with the weight of the head.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Any two wheeled vehicle which has too much weight on the front, the handling is horrible, if having a lot of weight on the front wheel was a good idea all motorbikes would be built that way! Think of the difference in handling between a full tank of petrol compared to half a tank, that is when cornering becomes fun!

Front wheel drive pedelecs probably work quite well in the flat northern European and Asian cities, they don't work well where there are hills. There is an unloved FWD Giant in the bike garage downstairs with about 3 mm of dust on it to prove that last point.

 

[georgehenry]

I am also still riding an Oxygen Emate City like yours and it is my go to bike to wizz into town to do shopping and then haul it back up the hill home. Mine is 2011 and looks very well used but still works very well. Gently de restricted, ie the loop of wire has been attended to allowing around 18 maybe 20, although I have no speedo to know for sure. A very handy de restricted throttle and relaxing cadence rear hub drive. If this is the same as the bike you own and you want a bit more range just get a decent battery from Jimmy at insat. A tired bike like these is far less nickable than a new one and still a very practical usable bike. If it aint broke don't fix it.

 

[FrodoBaggins]

I am also still riding an Oxygen Emate City like yours and it is my go to bike to wizz into town to do shopping and then haul it back up the hill home. Mine is 2011 and looks very well used but still works very well. Gently de restricted, ie the loop of wire has been attended to allowing around 18 maybe 20, although I have no speedo to know for sure. A very handy de restricted throttle and relaxing cadence rear hub drive. If this is the same as the bike you own and you want a bit more range just get a decent battery from Jimmy at insat. A tired bike like these is far less nickable than a new one and still a very practical usable bike. If it aint broke don't fix it.

Very happy to hear from a fellow Oxygen Emate owner.
I think you talk a lot of sense, the Emate is still going fine and the battery lasts easily 30-40 miles on medium.
You can de-restrict these in about 10 seconds by pressing the + and - buttons for 10 seconds and then basically just chosing your desired top speed. I basically just change it on the fly depending on where I am and what I am doing.

So I think your comments have grounded me, as I was probably getting carried away with marketing and fancy new bikes being dangled in front of me.
At the end of the day, it might be a bit 2011, but it is still an ebike, never goes wrong and does all the work for you when you need it.
It does weigh a tonne though and isnt great for lifting on trains etc.

Just out of interest I found insat on ebay but the prices were listed as £2000 for all products.
I did look into this, any idea if it is any good as it looks like it would fit.

Pardon our interruption...

Any advice as always welcome

 

[Nealh]

Insat is BGA Reworking/Ebike batteries the owner/Boss Jimmy is a great guy.
Don't know why it is 2k but you can find his number easily using the search forum, his battery re-cells are very good value considering he uses quality cells.