Advice for 20" hubs.

[Benjahmin]

Another thought. In all this I still don't know if the Q100H axle is actually 140mm or not.
I have just found a thread on ES. A guy there called Motomech reckons that all Q100 series are 135mm dropouts. Now with swmbo holding the tape measure, I'm able to spring the chainstays to 134mm with my puny arms.

 

[Woosh]

these motors come with normal washers and anti-rotation washers.
The anti-rotation washers are usually fitted inside the triangle.
If you fit the anti-rotation washers on the outside of the triangle, you don't need spreading.

 

[Nealh]

As Tony has said you can place the A/R washers outboard to reduce spreading of D/O's, A/R & washer placement can vary depending on whether a rotor needs to be lined up or the need to fit a T/A. For T/A I prefer to have mine sit nice and flat against the D/O so usually fitted in board on the RHS.

 

[RossG]

Aluminium 6061 has an ultimate tensile strength of at least 290 MPa (42,000 psi) and yield strength of at least 240 MPa (35,000 psi), Young's modulus : 68.9 GPa (9,990 ksi) Elongation at break: 12–25%.
The last bit (12% elongation before break) is an important point.
When you spread 5mm on a 20"wheel, the maximum elongation of the tie at the weld where the two branches of the rear triangle are tied together near the bottom bracket is roughly (5mm/130mm) * (100mm/250mm) = 1.5%. It's much more than spreading 5mm on a 26" or 700C frame. However, it's not a huge risk.

C'mon Whoosh that's a direct quote, I have it in front of me now. Do you know what factory those Apollo bike were fabricated in or what grade the tubing is because I don't. Being fair the whole build may go faultlessly but who knows.
You're a businessman Whoosh as I am (rtd) so have plenty of public liability insurance just in case things go wrong and I'm sure vfr has too, I wonder if Ben has . Who will be first to say ' Hang on now, I didn't tell him to do that! '.
All I'm saying is Safety First every time, conversions second.

 

[Woosh]

Hi Ross,

when people do a conversion, they have issues like postioning the disc rotor, correct the chainline etc, people will have to re-arrange the washers for an optimal fit. The anti-rotation washers are 3mm thick and the normal washer 1mm but it's not always possible to move them outside so more often than not, they have to spread the rear triangle for about 5mm.
I have never known anyone damaging a rear triangle by spreading it that way (5mm). If you watch this video, you can see that the rear triangle is designed to flex a lot more than 5mm.

and same in this one in the other direction:

This one is tested to destruction (40mm compression)

 

[harrys]

No need to bend the frame if your customer can live with one less gear.

On a Q100, the OLD spacing of 135mm is determined by a bushing and nut under the freewheel. Loosen the nut, file down the bushing, and use a thinner freewheel.



This pic is a Q128, but it works he same way,

 

[harrys]

If you are not buying the wheels spoked, the common practice of alternate in/out spokes doesn't work well. The in-facing spokes are bowed and don't touch at the cross like they should. I first did both wheels like this, but didn't like it. Tore them apart and respoked with all spokes facing out. Harder to do, but got rid of the bowing.

First try. The spokes are 1/4" apart where they cross.


Retry. All spokes face out. It's harder to do, as the 2nd set of spokes have to be persuaded to go around the first set.

 

[Benjahmin]

Well, if it's 135mm as in Harrys photo, then I don't think it's going to be an issue. As I said I can spring the forks to 134 with my 65 year old arms. Maybe just maybe it will centralize as is, but I don't think a spacer or ar washer, on the inside, is going to be too much. I'll be buying built wheels.

There is a sticker on the frame that says it's 6061 custom tubing .
As to liability insurance - my neighbour will be appraised of the risks and the holes in my knowledge, then we'll make the decision together. I hate all this running scared of litigation that's killing so many aspects of life. I used to be in the St John ambulance brigade as a first aider, until it started to get that you couldn't actually touch some one who needed your help - in case they sued.

 

[RossG]

6061 is fairly standard stuff and to be fair shouldn't cause any problems if it's not over sprung.

 

[Benjahmin]

The kit's been ordered from BMS. The battery's going to be ordered from Yosepower. He wants to go for big batteries and is keen on this one:
https://www.yosepower.com/en/product/Original-Rear-Battery-LG-Cell36V16Ah(592Wh)-Electric-Bicycle-Li-ion-Battery+3A-Charger-black-DIY-75.html
The spec states that the cells are LG(MH1), maximum current 20A, standard current 10A. Any body know about these cells, are they OK in conjunction with a S06S controller?
Seems good for £203.

 

[Nealh]

MH1 from tests suffers damage if given the full 10a, 7a max is recommended for cell life. That 10s5p battery will be a breeze for SO6S which is 15a max , cells will only see 3a max if a throttle or PAS5 is used.

 

[Benjahmin]

Thanks Neal, I didn't know the max draw of the controller. Plus, it seems to be a good price for a 16Ah battery, so I was a bit suspicious.

 

[vfr400]

WOW!
This is getting way beyond my pay grade.
I know that aluminium stress fractures, on repeated bending, easier than steel. But this will be a static bend, won't it? In other words once the stretch is made it stays there (the 140mm axle holds it apart) it's not a repeated action.

That's right, though there is some cyclic stress as you pedal from side to side and go over bumps, but it's insignificant, otherwise all bike frames would break. The stress from a 5mm spring is completely insignificant compared with the stress from sitting on the bike and riding it.

I've taken a frame out to 170mm and done 5000 miles without any problem whatsoever. the only problem with springing that far is that the caliper ends up at an angle to the disc so you have to realign it with spacers behind the caliper adapter.

 

[vfr400]

Another thought. In all this I still don't know if the Q100H axle is actually 140mm or not.
I have just found a thread on ES. A guy there called Motomech reckons that all Q100 series are 135mm dropouts. Now with swmbo holding the tape measure, I'm able to spring the chainstays to 134mm with my puny arms.

As already said a couple of times, it depends on whether you have a disc brake and how many gears you have on the freewheel.

 

[RossG]

As already said a couple of times, it depends on whether you have a disc brake and how many gears you have on the freewheel.

I believe Ben mentioned in an earlier post it had a 6 gear block, no discs on a Transition.

 

[Benjahmin]

Yer, that's right.
Anyway, kit's are ordered and about to order the 16Ah batteries from yose.

 

[Benjahmin]

The kits arrived from bmsb today. My neighbour had a real shock when the UPS driver said that he'd got to pay a huge tax bill before the parcels could be dropped. Seems like the good folk at the revenue have, for some reason, assumed a £500 delivery cost and he's had to pay the vat on that plus some other stuff. Anyway he's been on to the tax people and explained the delivery was far less than that, he's got a form coming.
Kits are all present and correct, however both motor wheels arrived in boxes with their axles protuding through the sides of the boxes. Very poor packaging. Main concern is the cables coming out of the axles. They are protected by strain relieve springs so are hopefully OK. Already found one very loose spoke in the first wheel - will be checking as we go.
Battery from Yose also arrived today, though they've only sent one. E-mails are flying.

Checked one motor in the frame and (without any spacers) I've only had to spring it about 5mm. Dropouts will need filing but possibly only to take the paint off. Will start in ernest tommorrow by checking wheel centering and chain line - see if it needs spacers. Just ordered torque brackets.
There is a housing in the front of the battery that looks like it may well take the controller and some wiring. Will need to fabricate some bracket system to hold the battery slide to the rather substantial bike rack.
Let the fun begin

 

[vfr400]

You need to get your freewheels on to check and adjust the width ofthe motor. Don't touch the spokes yet in case you have to centre the wheel in the crame.

 

[Benjahmin]

Done the basic conversion to the first bike. Motor went in with one spacer washer on the non gear side. Easy to spring it in with just my thumbs, no brute force needed. Just had to reset the top and bottom limits on the derailleur, indexing is fine.
The battery has an empty bit at the front of the slide, so the controller's gone in there. There are some vent holes in it so hopefully it'll be alright. These are leisure bikes so I don't think water's gonna be a problem.
The hidden wire brake switch is a brilliant and neat piece of kit (thanks for the heads up vfr).
Just wading through the Chinglish instructions for the LCD5 to get to imperial settings. Seems a nice little display.
Left hand thumb throttle feels nice, so far giving max speed of 35km/h. Yet to set wheel size etc.
Waiting on torque bracket delivery then, when a bit of spiral wrap has been added to cables, I can road test it and hand it over, step back and watch the e bike grin take hold.
I'll get some photo's done soon.

 

[RossG]

Well done Ben, sorted nicely.