Advances in battery technology

[Quicken]

Hi all,

I thought I would start a thread on new battery technologies that are emerging. Some of these are bound to find their way into Pedelecs sooner or later. I will list a couple of companies, and the claims they make for their batteries here. Hopefully, we can add to the list, and build an understanding of the future of battery technology.

Company: A123 Systems A123 Systems :: Home
Product: M1 cell A123 Systems :: Products
Technology: nanophosphate electrodes for Li-ion cells
Claims
Power: Over 3000 Watts per kg and 5800 Watts per liter
Safety: Inherently safe and environmentally friendly (see the nail test video)
Life: 10X cycle life vs. conventional Li-Ion
Charging: 5-minute recharge
Temps: -30 to 70 degrees C operating range

Company: Altairnano Altairnano - AMPS
Product: nLTO cell
Technology: nano-structured lithium titanate spinel oxide (LTO) electrode for Li-ion cells
Claims
Power: Three times the power of existing batteries
Safety: No operational safety issues
Life: 10,000 to 15,000 charges vs. 750 for existing batteries
Charging: 1-minute recharge
Temps: -30 to 65 degrees C operating range. Up to 240°C in testing without explosion.
http://www.altairnano.com/documents/060926HOUSECARBZEV.pdf

Company: EEStor (no URL at present). Info here ZENN Motor Company - Welcome to the Web Site of the leading developer, manufacturer and supplier of electric vehicles. and Technology Review: Battery Breakthrough?
Product: Electrical Energy Storage Unit
Technology: battery-ultracapacitor hybrid based on barium-titanate powders
Claims
Power: 280 watt hours per kilogram, compared with around 120 watt hours per kilogram for lithium-ion and 32 watt hours per kilogram for lead-acid gel batteries.
Safety: "It will be the safest battery the world has ever seen"
Life: Millions of 100% charge/discharge cycles.
Charging: microsecond recharging - 10-minute recharge for full car unit.
Temps: -20 to 65 degrees C operating range.
Other info: Under its Technology Agreement with EEStor, Inc., ZMC (Zenn motor company) holds the worldwide exclusive license
for EEStor’s batteries for small and medium-sized vehicles (up to 1,400 kgs curb weight).

Company: Toshiba. Info here Toshiba to Launch Innovative Rechargeable Battery Business.
Product: Super Charge ion Battery (SCiB)
Technology: Lithium-ion battery
Claims
Power: The SCiB has an input-output performance equivalent to that of an electric double layer capacitor.
Capacity: A standard 24V, 4.2 Ah module weighs 2Kg
Safety: SCiB adopts a new negative-electrode material that offers a high level of thermal stability and a high flash point electrolyte, and has a structure resistant to internal short circuiting and thermal runaway.
Life: Able to repeat the charge-discharge cycle over 5,000 times (10 years with a once-a-day recharge-discharge cycle)
Charging: At 50 A, recharge to 90% of full capacity takes 5 minutes.
Temps: SCiB operates well in temperature extremes, with sufficient discharge at temperatures as low as -30°C.
Other info: The first SCiB will be shipped from March 2008.

Cheers,
Q

 

[flecc]

These are the car technologies that I've referred to previously, the aim being ultra quick charges rather than very high energy density. From the electric bike users point of view, it's not the best news, for that's the opposite of what we need, which is energy density for range. The motor industry knows there's no chance of enough energy density for 300 mile ranges, so all the effort is to get charge times possible during frequent stops at around 80 to 100 mile intervals for one or two minutes or so each time.

Toshiba have done most of the early work in this direction and have twice announced availability in the following year, and they should be here with us now. They're not of course, and that's the trouble with these future promises, they never quite seem to make it in the manner described in the laboratory.

There will be advances of course, but I'm prepared to bet they'll be something like those to date, a very gradual improvement, which for us has meant a doubling of range over the last ten years The labs keep quiet about the disadvantages of their developments, since it's continuing funding they need, so spin pays. So here's some examples:

The claims of huge numbers of charges and very long life for lithium batteries of various kinds all depend on minimal discharge depth. In other words, if a lithium rechargeable battery is designed for discharge of only a seventh of it's capacity each time, with immediate recharge, it can last for very many years. Only the words in bold are announced. This kind of use is in satellites today. That would mean us only doing about 3 or 4 miles at most before recharging

The claims of very high performance, in a sports car for example, are met by using vast numbers of tiny near AA size cells. I won't go into why that is, as the explanation is very long, but it's sufficient for you to know that the charger that has to be used for this setup is as big as a large room. Again, you only hear the words in bold.

Yes, I'm a cynic, but that cynicism is born of very long professional experience in many branches of technology, and I know the politics of development.

 

[flecc]

P.S.

Another example is the way in which progress announced triumphantly can actually be a backwards step, this example I've referred to before. For years we had cobalt based Li-ion technology which had it's shortcomings, so the magnesium based batteries appeared, accompanied by fanfares with great claims of even better performance. In fact they were only fractionally better than NiMh, had much shorter life than those, and also had over 25% less capacity than the cobalt based ones they replaced.

And it has to be remembered that NiMh had losses compared with the Ni-cads they replaced, much slower discharge capability and possibility of being permanently damaged if charged beyond a certain voltage.

It's for these sort of reasons that lead-acid still hangs on, and the motor industry refuses to move onto anything else for the essential function of vehicle starting. Since lead-acid is essentially the same as the very first cells ever invented, we are still in reality at the square one of the 19th century for our most common battery usage.

 

[Quicken]

These are the car technologies that I've referred to previously, the aim being ultra quick charges rather than very high energy density. From the electric bike users point of view, it's not the best news, for that's the opposite of what we need, which is energy density for range. The motor industry knows there's no chance of enough energy density for 300 mile ranges, so all the effort is to get charge times possible during frequent stops at around 80 to 100 mile intervals for one or two minutes or so each time.

Actually, the Tesla roaster can do 250 miles with current battery technology (a proprietary Lithium ion battery pack), so 300 miles doesn't seem too much of a stretch:
http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/charging_and_batteries.php

Toshiba have done most of the early work in this direction and have twice announced availability in the following year, and they should be here with us now. They're not of course, and that's the trouble with these future promises, they never quite seem to make it in the manner described in the laboratory.

A123 batteries are in the wild, not just in the lab. They're already being widely used in power tools for example. True, some of the claims are inflated marketing speak, but that's always the case. Here's a test on them in DeWalt power tools:
DeWalt 36V Technology (A123 Systems)
Dissecting DeWalt 36V Packs (A123 Systems)

Altairnano's stuff is newer, but it's already been packed into an all-electric SUV for the Californian market:
http://www.altairnano.com/documents/CNET_News_11-30-06.pdf
Electric Cars, Green Vehicle :: Phoenix Motorcars, Inc.

Unfortunately, the CNET article does say this:

"Changing the anode material does reduce the ultimate performance of the batteries. In a notebook, an Altair-like battery might only give a user a four-hour charge, versus a six-hour charge with a high performance lithium battery, said Gotcher. But the Altair-style battery will store more energy than a conventional car battery, which explains why the car manufacturers are intrigued and the notebook manufacturers are less so."

There will be advances of course, but I'm prepared to bet they'll be something like those to date, a very gradual improvement, which for us has meant a doubling of range over the last ten years The labs keep quiet about the disadvantages of their developments, since it's continuing funding they need, so spin pays. So here's some examples:

The claims of huge numbers of charges and very long life for lithium batteries of various kinds all depend on minimal discharge depth. In other words, if a lithium rechargeable battery is designed for discharge of only a seventh of it's capacity each time, with immediate recharge, it can last for very many years. Only the words in bold are announced. This kind of use is in satellites today. That would mean us only doing about 3 or 4 miles at most before recharging

A123 shows lifetime specific stats on 100% depth of discharge:
A123 Systems :: Technology :: Life

Altairnano also used 100% DoD testing:
http://www.altairnano.com/documents/EETimes11-01-06.pdf

The claims of very high performance, in a sports car for example, are met by using vast numbers of tiny near AA size cells. I won't go into why that is, as the explanation is very long, but it's sufficient for you to know that the charger that has to be used for this setup is as big as a large room. Again, you only hear the words in bold.

Yes, I'm a cynic, but that cynicism is born of very long professional experience in many branches of technology, and I know the politics of development.

Well, I think scepticism is good, but there are genuine advances being made imho.

Cheers,
Q

 

[flecc]

I know the examples you give are true, but it's also true that General Motors, the biggest of them all introduced a finished production car to the market, but later withdrew it. Despite all the claims, the reality made it not worthwhile. I'm convinced when things are on the market with satisfied customers, and we are a long way from that.

There are certainly advances as you say, but they aren't practical until we are using them. Until then, they are just the outcome of laboratory work, often with the built in disadvantages that I've referred too.

The best practical example we have of the real situation is the ranges that our bike manufacturers claim, and the ranges that we get in practice, usually about half the claim.

I like future watching and wish that the battery situation wasn't such a disappointing one, but the history is full of failure and has little to show for the immense amount of research that's been expended. In the age of very rapid development fifty years ago we would have viewed with horror the idea that we'd still be using lead-acid batteries in our cars today, but we are, and sadly not a sign we'll be changing soon.

 

[flecc]

Never mind 50cycles, there are some bright spots, and I'll be publishing one on an eZee bike in a few days I'm sure you'll be pleased to read of.

 

[Quicken]

I know the examples you give are true, but it's also true that General Motors, the biggest of them all introduced a finished production car to the market, but later withdrew it. Despite all the claims, the reality made it not worthwhile. I'm convinced when things are on the market with satisfied customers, and we are a long way from that.

True, but GM are giving it another go, with the development of plug-in hybrids.

Green Car Congress: A123Systems-Cobasys and Johnson Controls-Saft to Supply GM with Li-Ion Batteries for Plug-in Hybrid Development Program

General Motors Corp. today announced it has awarded advanced battery development contracts to two suppliers to design and test lithium-ion batteries for use in the Saturn Vue Green Line plug-in hybrid SUV.

One contract has been awarded to Johnson Controls - Saft Advanced Power Solutions, LLC, a joint venture between Tier 1 automotive supplier Johnson Controls and Saft. Another agreement was signed with Cobasys, based in Orion, Mich., a joint venture between Chevron Technology Ventures LLC, a subsidiary of Chevron Corp., and Energy Conversion Devices, Inc. Cobasys will work in partnership with A123Systems, a privately held company based in Watertown, Mass., to develop lithium-ion battery technology.

2007 will be an interesting year for proving battery technologies in electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles.

Cheers,
Q

 

[flecc]

Re: GM, that's right Quicken, with the Japanese having shown the way, they're doing it too, but of course the battery has less importance in this context, since it's mainly a short term energy transfer component, making it's design easier. It could even be replaced by a super capacitor with advantage, and I'm surprised the Japanese haven't explored this yet.

I hope you're right about 2007 and battery advance, but I'll do the judging in 2008, if you get my drift.

 

[Quicken]

Bump - updated original post with another contender.
Cheers,
Q

 

[Quicken]

In a minor update on the Eestor technology, I found an mp3 recording of a presentation given by Ian Clifford, CEO of Zenn. The prospects of the Eestor technology are covered in the second half of the presentation. You can listen to it here:

ZENN Pitches the Future: Electric Car | ZENN Cars Canada | Roth Capital Partners

Cheers,
Q

 

[kraeuterbutter]

here some more information for the A123 M1 FePo4-cells (we are using now for some month in rc-sports)

(specially dedicated to the big scepticer flecc )

we have the diagramms, we have the data provided by A123-Systems
but - as flecc stated - datas from a manufactor are always very pink...

every-day-flyer has desided to get real-world data for cycle-life.

the datas provided by A123Systems (>1000cycles) are measured at 10C load

(1C = dischargecurrent same as capacity of cell
2C = dischargecurrent 2 times as big as capacity of cell
10C = dischargecurrent 10 times as big as capacity of cell)

every-day-flyer wanted some own realworld - testresults, his words:

I have studied all of the vendors graphs, read hundreds of post in many different forums on several different Users Sites including ,RCU,RC Groups ,Traxxas and a few smaller ones. I have read post by car /truck,aircraft ,fixed and rotory wing and even boat RCers.
I have read post of those charging at 6A,10A and even 25A and discharge rates from about 5C (12 min) runs to 10C ( 6 min). flights .
The one thing that remains a mystery is real cycle life data at rates other than 10C max..

he has used the batts in a rc-car with
7-8C average dischargerate (= 16A - 18A average)
and up to 30C peaks (= 70A peaks)

so no labor-test


(REMEMBER: in a electro pedelec you would use the cells as a 5p-pack (5cells paralleled), so the 40A peaks in the pedelec would be only 8A PEAK for single cell and not 70A like on the test)

here is a graph of the condition of his batts (much more stressed than in a electric bike) at first discharge
and after 185cycles !

after this 185cycles (which - flecc - were FULL Deep-discharge-cycles !)
the battery has still 96% of its original capacity

oh:
at charge number 168 he even did a full-charge of the empty pack within
4min 18seconds !!!!!

look here:

even after that torture the cell showed only that ~4% capacity-loose (17cycles later) after 185cycles overall !

so.. considering this and the fact, that the cells would be stressed FAR FAR less in a electric pedelec, i think 1000cycles with over 80% capacity should be possible.

for chargers: i have shown in other thread that a charger for a pack you can use in the bike (for example 12s5p with 11Ah) does not need to be "VERY very big and heavy" as stated here somewere as well..

for the whole ongoing test visit this thread:
A123 pack life in real world uses?

to the end:
this cells are not at all comparable with anything you maybe knew before !
and for sure not with cells, which are sold currently in the e-bike-shops
(for example this cells: 50cycles Electric Bicycle - What you really need to know about Lithium ion battery packs )

the thing which must happen now:
the e-bike-sellers (not the "we build the cheapest in china" once)
have to get this cells in there hand..
build a nice casing
configure the cells in there factories for bike-use (10s4p - up to 12s5p for example)
and develope some easy handling chargers
as well as balancer/equalizer

all this parts are already available but for a easy-to-use-for-also-non-electric-enthusiast there should be a all-out-of-one-hand solution

 

[flecc]

(specially dedicated to the big scepticer flecc )

to the end:
this cells are not at all comparable with anything you maybe knew before !

I've seen that sentence before, with NiCad.

I've seen that sentence before, with NiMh.

I've seen that sentence before, with Li-ion.

I've seen that sentence before, with Li-Poly.

the thing which must happen now:
the e-bike-sellers (not the "we build the cheapest in china" once)
have to get this cells in there hand..
build a nice casing
configure the cells in there factories for bike-use (10s4p - up to 12s5p for example)
and develope some easy handling chargers
as well as balancer/equalizer

They should, but I bet they won't. Why? Because the customers who know nothing of these matters just want the cheapest bike.

Price rules!

 

[kraeuterbutter]

.. yes.. we heard that all for the other cells too..

but for that there are the realworld-testings..

i know there are NiMh which REALY sux, and there are also great once..
you also can´t say Nimh is Nimh... that also another factor !

for the "cheapest bike"

i refer here to bikes like
Opti-bike, the Flyer-series, or the swizzbee (and not all that cheap china-bikes)

when somebody is able to pay 2000Euro+ for a bike,
i think he is maybe also willing to spend 100Euro more for a battery that will maybe last 3times as long as the 100 Euro cheaper onces..
on the long run he would even safe money

meahwhile there are also people reporting about over 400cycles with the A123.. but they have not stated if full-discharge/charge-cycles and on what currents..
every-day-flyer above has documented his use of the batts more clearly...
4% for nearly 200cycles is at least promising !
(there are many batts that will be already dead after 200cycles - think you would agree with that ?!? )


(for price again:
lets say 9euro for a single cell..
12s4p => 48cells => 430Euro ===> 9,2Ah => 3,4kg cell-weight => continous power 6000Watt, peak over 10000Watt
a charger can be done for 100Euro or less
a balancer for 60 Euro
or a all-in-one charger+balancer for less than 150Euro)

i think a good NiMh in that category would also be not much cheaper

but there will come more cells of that kind...
iam using Nicd/Nimh/Lipo for aoub 20years in the hobby now, followed all new development, saw many batts fail, and this realy has potential to be very long-lifing and durable from all i have seen for myself and at others

 

[flecc]

I agree the makers of the expensive bikes really should put more effort into developing newer types, but they are often rather complacent. Just look at the ridiculous price BionX ask for their Li-ion battery, $900 in the USA. I can understand them not bothering if they can get away with prices like that for what they already have.

In their defence though, these expensive bikes sell in very small numbers, so that makes investment difficult to justify. Even the Giant Lafree Twist series reportedly only sold 20,000 bikes worldwide over it's six years. The numbers for BionX, Swizzbee, Optibike and the like must be really tiny.

 

[electric.mike]

i studied all the technical facts, comparison charts, battery vs weight vs % of capacity lost over time, ignored price and bought a black one i could have bought a red one but thought what the heck i will have a black one.
mike

 

[flecc]

i studied all the technical facts, comparison charts, battery vs weight vs % of capacity lost over time, ignored price and bought a black one i could have bought a red one but thought what the heck i will have a black one.
mike

I've never tried the red ones, but also like the black ones, and the silver ones are quite good too. They've also got a nice curvy top.

 

[coops]

i studied all the technical facts, comparison charts, battery vs weight vs % of capacity lost over time, ignored price and bought a black one i could have bought a red one but thought what the heck i will have a black one.
mike

I've never tried the red ones, but also like the black ones, and the silver ones are quite good too. They've also got a nice curvy top.

Yes, yes, yes... that's all very well, but what I want to know is, do any of them have go-faster stripes??? ;-)

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

AND a "Starsky and Hutch" white stripe as well, what more could any aging poser want!!
.

 

[coops]

ok, I'll take 3! hehehe! Yes, very "retro"

time to hit the bar - aka "the charging post" - before I go further off-topic (though seems I missed the opening yesterday!)

Stuart.

 

[kraeuterbutter]

some updates for the A123 Fepo4-cells..
(mine are running still great, power as on first day)

here a guy makes some cycle-tests with the cells..

test one: A123: long term (after 1,000 CYCLES done, 2nd cell over 500 cycles at higher A) - RC Groups
1050 cycles done

(after 400cycles 6% capacity loose, no loose on punsh/voltage
then another 250cycles (were the cells were charged to 4,3Volt/cell instead of the allowed 3,6V/cells for test reason - no problems, many lipos would have failed or even burned)
...
and after 1050cycles in sum capacity is down to about 70% of original 100% value
and voltage under load has also started at about cycle 1000 to become lower (so inner resistance startet to rise after about 1000cycles)

the test was done with much more stress to the cells as they would see in a bike
(charged in 20min or less all time during test, discharged in less than 10min all the time down to 2,5V/cell )

so: you would not charge your pack in 20min in a bike
and you would not discharge it in less than 10min
nevertheless the cells survived over 1000cycles at this circumstances..

he is now doing a test with higher charge current (charing at 5C, so fully charged after around 12min and discharging at 10C (so emptied from full to empty within 6min)

he as already 512cycles so far
capacity went down from 100% to 84%