A Statement from Bosch

[SRS]

we're not ignoring your feedback. I'm just saying we have to operate within the UK and EU law, you might want something different, and we may well agree with you... but we have to sell products that can be used legally. Bosch are investing massively in R&D and developing products that meet the needs of each market.

KTM, why not just get on and sell your bikes as they are. We all know your bikes are decent so people will buy them as is.

Let people who wish to sell tuning devices sell them. As I understand it is within the law to sell these devices.

Let people who wish to fit these tuning device to their bike fit them. They can take the responsibility for their own actions.

 

[SRS]

So,
Assuming we were to get 20mph allowed... would we be then chasing after 25?

I would.

 

[flecc]

We're talking about a common-sense limit which in my view is set too low in law. The limit won't be put up if we don't ask for it to be, and that is my point - that is where I think the industry should be expending its effort, in lobbying for pedelecs to be applicable for a greater proportion of the population,

The UK's view is a very much a minority one though. The great bulk of the market for our types of e-bike is in mainland Europe, especially the low countries and Germany, and there normal cycling speeds are very different and much slower than in the UK where cycling is commonly seen as a sporting pursuit. Few Dutch cyclists ride at 20 mph, ambling at 8 to 12 mph is far more common and that is the world's largest market for pedelecs.

Sure we can lobby for more speed in the UK, but we cannot expect the manufacturers to help with that lobbying when their main market is so different.

We also have to bear in mind the spread of EU type pedelec law around the world. Australia has broadly adopted it now and China have too, phasing it in over a few years to allow for getting rid of the current crop of scooter like e-bikes. That spread makes convincing our politicians to do something different all the more difficult.
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[stevew]

Suppose the question is whether we want to be cyclists (with a little bit of help) or motorcyclists (with all the controls from gov. depts. like VOSA) 'cos i reckon as sure as "eggs are eggs" bureaucratic government departments will get involved once we are seen as anything other than cyclists. My opinion is that the current euro ruling is OK and the speed limits are fine for cyclists. I have a Honda C90 for anything faster.
The other consideration is that as "cyclists" we are allowed on the UK's roads without any training. This could be a good or bad thing but that is for another thread!
I think that possibly we are the only powered road users so allowed. Not sure it would be healthy to allow untrained, naive, peeps out on 25mph PTWs.
There certainly is a market for 25mph PTW and that is covered by the "moped" laws for the 49cc bikes and electric as well which allows up to 28mph i think. You want to see what the motorcycling world has to say about those
So whilst we want 20-25mph pedelecs, the motorcycle world wants 35-40mph "mopeds"
Bit of joined up thinking wouldn't go amiss here

 

[JohnCade]

Even in that situation increasing the speed cutoff makes pedelecs viable for more of the people who might be looking to replace their car / bus / tram or tube.

That is unlikely to be the case with the demographic intimated earlier in the thread - people who already cycle a reasonable distance to work. There's absolutely no way I'm cycling a round trip of 44 miles in my suit! Plus commuting isn't just a fair-weather activity - I need to get to work whatever the weather.

I don't agree with the sentiment that everything in every other aspect of transport is about reducing one's speed, but neither do I believe it has any applicability here. We're talking about a common-sense limit which in my view is set too low in law. The limit won't be put up if we don't ask for it to be, and that is my point - that is where I think the industry should be expending its effort, in lobbying for pedelecs to be applicable for a greater proportion of the population, rather than appearing to be the harbingers of doom and highlighting the dangers of dongles and S-pedelecs at every available opportunity. If pedelecs are more relevant and more viable for more people then you get more sales!

Michael

I don't see why you're complaining to the OP though it's like a passenger complaining to a seaman about the sea. He's not making the law.

If you want the current limit raised then have your say to the DTI via the link on the other thread. But since they haven't got around to incorporating the EU changes yet I think you'll be whistling in the wind there. As to the dongle situation the same applies really. They are illegal as it stands and thats that. If you want to use one anyway it's your choice. Bosch may not honour the warranty and that's their choice too.

So as long as everyone knows it...

 

[EddiePJ]

They have however issued a statement about the use of dongles on their bikes, and are sending me a couple of examples from Germany about why they are so concerned for their end customers who use, and the dealers who sell these products. They very much are not just being the "fun police". They are the worlds largest Ltd Company they take their social and legal responsibilities VERY seriously.

This is the statement.
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Is tuning allowed?

On the Internet in particular, you can find a variety of companies and individuals that offer a so-called tuning of the Bosch eBike System. As the component manufacturer, Bosch eBike Systems highly discourages making use of such products or attempting to manipulate the Bosch eBike System yourself: You generally reduce the life of the system and risk damage to the drive unit and the bike. There is also the risk that you will lose the right to assert guarantee and warranty claims for the purchased bike. Improper use of the system also jeopardizes your safety and that of other road users, and in case of an accident due to tuning, you risk high personal liability costs and possibly even the threat of criminal prosecution. For this reason Bosch eBike Systems calls on all eBike riders and providers to refrain from tuning.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best regards

Robert Bosch GmbH
Automotive Electronics, eBike Service (AE-EB/SSB1)
Gerhard-Kindler-Straße 3
72770 Reutlingen
GERMANY

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I read that statement a few months back from the FAQ page of the Bosch homepage. http://www.bosch-ebike.de/en/company/faq_company/faq.html





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[KTM Bike Industries UK]

KTM, why not just get on and sell your bikes as they are. We all know your bikes are decent so people will buy them as is.

we do, and they are selling very well. The point of posting this on here was to educate some of these customers, because there are some shops in the UK that claim that using a dongle doesn't invalidate their warranty. This is miss selling, and when a customer comes to us to warranty a bike that can't be, its us that look like the bad guys. Education is the key, if people want to take the risk, then fair play... but at least know the game you're playing thats all.

Let people who wish to fit these tuning device to their bike fit them. They can take the responsibility for their own actions.

This I'm afraid isn't possible... even you sign away you rights, you are not solely responsible for your actions. Life isn't that simple anymore.

There is pretty clear legal advice on this for, and if a dongled bike is involved in an accident liability can pass right up the supply chain. Bikes with dongles aren't approved as safe products as has been discussed many times.

Trading Standards advice.

"When assessing the safety of a product a number of matters are taken into consideration and anyone in the supply chain, including retailers, can be held liable for the supply of unsafe products.

Traders should carry out basic checks on vehicles before supply including checking the frame is not damaged, that nuts and bolts are secure, tyres are properly inflated, and steering is aligned. The vehicle sold must be of satisfactory quality, fit for the purpose, and as described. There are rules relating to the legal and illegal use of off-road vehicles which should be passed on to the consumer."

 

[Gringo]

OK so I've seen this "I want more speed" argument before and can fully see what you all are getting at for road use.
As I see it, the big problem is a pedelec is allowed on shared use paths with all the associated hazards.
We all say we ride sensibly but Unfortunately common sense isn't that common after all.
sooner rather than later some naughty people will be knocking old lady's down saying "it's not my fault, my bikes alowed to go 25mph on the footpath"
Yes by all mean have faster E-bikes but there has to be a way to identifiy them so they keep to the roads.

 

[RobF]

so they are starting their dedicated UK support early in 2015.

This quote is the interesting part of the original post.

Dongles have been done to death, time and time again, the same tired old arguments, the same stupid scaremongering from those with axes to grind.

But the start of dedicated UK support from Bosch is news, and good news at that.

Let's hope they live up to their promise.