A legal question or two....

[Jeremy]

The law that applies to electric assist bikes in the UK seems to be a bit of a minefield, as far as I can see. I can understand the intent behind the maximum speed and power limits to some extent, but the way the regulations are framed seems to be open to wide variations in interpretation.

For example, I can't see any obvious way in which the police could tell if a bike had an average electric power limit of 200W or not. The fact that the regulations state "average power" is itself wide open to different interpretations, as you could have a couple of kilowatts of instantaneous power available yet still be legal, provided you rode at an appropriate pedal/electric duty cycle.

Similarly, the 15mph limit above which electric power should not be used to propel the bike is also open to interpretation. I note that some UK-legal bikes have a power cut-off at this speed, but I would guess that it should be OK to deliver enough power at any speed to not propel the bike (i.e. just enough power to overcome motor/transmission drag).

Finally, I wonder what the law would make of an e-bike carrying a very quiet, tiny, generator? It wouldn't be powering the vehicle, just charging the battery, so presumably one could argue that this would make a legal, very long range, e-bike. To be absolutely sure of being legal it might be wise to have two battery packs, with only one being in use at any time and the other being charged. It rather defeats the purpose of an electric assisted bike to me, but makes an interesting debating point, perhaps!

Overall, this bit of law seems a bit poorly drafted, but I suppose we should be grateful that we have any means to use power-assist legally.

Jeremy

 

[rooel]

I think it has been said before that to be legal EAPCs have to have the battery and associated motor as the primary source of traction. Therefore a ?diesel? generator charging the battery as it simultaneously discharged into the motor would not be legally acceptable. You would have in fact not an electric bike but a diesel electric.

Your idea of having a ?diesel? generator charging a spare battery which is not connected to the motor however seems legally feasible. I do not know of any regulation which prohibits a pedal cycle, electically assisted or not, from carrying a fully operational diesel generator which is doing anything other than powering the bike.

There may, however, be practical disadvantages: a diesel engine, generator, and spare battery would weigh more than a spare battery, charged at home, and carried in the saddle bag.

 

[Miles]

I don't recall seeing the term "average power" in either the 1983 UK EAPC Regulations or the 2002 EC Directive.....

"Maximum continuous rated power output" is not "average power"....

Miles

 

[flecc]

The Lynch motor fitted to some Cycles maximus trikes, both rickshaw and van versions, has a peak power around 5 kW at the start of it's torque curve, dropping instantly and running very low at higher speeds. It's also rated as 250 watts average.

Regarding generation, it is illegal to manufacture on the public highway, and when readymix concrete trucks first appeared many years ago, they fell foul of that until a special order was drafted for them.

It's possible that manufacturing electricity while using the road is also illegal therefore.

There's also the pollution laws to consider.
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[Ian]

Youre right Jeremy in saying the regs are open to widespread interpretation but I wouldn't call it a minefield, at least not for the purchaser. Miles is right in saying that Max continuous rated output is not average power, but on any electric motor the short term peak can far exceed the maximum continuous output which is usually limited by temperature but in the case of a battery powered system may well be limited by the batteries ability to deliver power continuously or additionally in the case of a bike the fact that 15 mph on the level needs less than 200W to sustain. Typically UK bikes have peak powers up to about 700W.

All electric motors are hard to put precise ratings on as the output is not limited by the motor itself, but by the external power available to the motor.

I don't think an ic engined generator charging the battery would be acceptable as effectively that would make the bike petrol or diesel powered with electric transmission. Over the years a number of vehicles with electric transmission have been tried, but all have very definitely been classed as motor vehicles.

 

[rooel]

"It's possible that manufacturing electricity while using the road is also illegal therefore."

Looks like I could be in trouble: my front wheel dynohub manufactures electricity all the time for my day-running lights.

Perhaps the law makes a distinction between manufacturing and generating. Concrete is manufactured from solids, whereas electricity comes from magnetic fields and flows invisibly along the copper wires to the battery where it produces a chemical reaction which rearranges some atoms but does not produce anything "concrete".

 

[flecc]

And of course electricity is generated for ignition and lighting purposes on IC engined vehicles.

However, there could be a distinction between "internal" generation of that type and generation for charging a separate battery which is not at the time a component of the vehicle, giving the complexities the drafters get themselves into with law on technical matters.
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[Jeremy]

I think the replies above pretty much illustrate the point I was trying to make. Although I'll admit that I got it wrong by stating "average power", rather than "maximum continuous power", the latter definition is actually even more open to liberal interpretation.

I've been associated with aviation for a fair part of my life and "maximum continuous power" can be arbitrarily defined by the design authority (usually the manufacturer). All that most manufacturers do is define a low figure, in order to minimise the fuel consumption at this rate (which is a legally required figure). My guess is that manufacturers could do exactly the same with an electric assist system, relying on the rider to not exceed the manufacturers limit.

I don't for one moment think that carrying a generator is either sensible or desirable, but given that little 600W or 700W ones are only about £50 in B&Q and that they only weigh about 12kg or so, the idea does have a certain amount of merit.................

Personally I'm inclined to the view that deregulating light electric vehicles would be a good thing, perhaps with easy to define (and check) limits, such as maximum unladen weight and maximum speed (speed limiters, like lorries, perhaps).

Jeremy

 

[Miles]

.... perhaps with easy to define (and check) limits, such as maximum unladen weight and maximum speed (speed limiters, like lorries, perhaps).

Jeremy,

We already have those....

I'd prefer a higher value for motor output, but no country has an unlimited value for this AFAIK...

The lowest class of "motor vehicle" has a 1kW limit.

 

[frank9755]

Jeremy,

You are right that the law is not entirely clear or straightforward but I'm not sure there is a vastly better alternative!

There is already a weight limit (40kg). Limiting maximum speed wouldn't work for a vehicle which is defined as an assisted bicycle, as there is no speed limit on bicycles, or even a requirement to carry a speedometer.

The current law is a bit confusing, but it permits a decent range of power assisted bikes and is not enforced very strictly in any case. It doesn't seem like such a bad situation. I feel we have more risk of losing from changes in the law than chance of gaining!

Frank

 

[flecc]

The current law is a bit confusing, but it permits a decent range of power assisted bikes and is not enforced very strictly in any case. It doesn't seem like such a bad situation. I feel we have more risk of losing from changes in the law than chance of gaining!

Frank

My feeling too, but the tightening up may well start happening now that the Royal Mail has called for the laws relating to pedelecs to be clarified, now that they are to operate large numbers of these bikes.
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[Miles]

What I think would be reasonable:

EAPC

30 kph max. assisted speed.

500 Watts max. cont. rated motor.

Weight limit as present.


Low Powered Moped

40 kph max. assisted speed.

Power limit as present. (1 kW)

Change present motorcycle helmet requirement to cycle helmet one.

 

[frank9755]

Miles,

I understand where you are coming from but I fear that the chances of a law being introduced which implicitly says that a cycle helmet is adequate protection in the case of a 40km/h accident are pretty remote!

Frank

 

[Miles]

Miles,

I understand where you are coming from but I fear that the chances of a law being introduced which implicitly says that a cycle helmet is adequate protection in the case of a 40km/h accident are pretty remote!

Frank

In that case, they should remove the requirement for working pedals...

 

[flecc]

Adding to Miles wish list, joining all other European countries in not requiring any helmet wearing on the BMW C1 scooter which doesn't need them.

I think our refusal to make a change for this vehicle is more to do with administrative laziness than any rational belief on the safety issue.

My interest is that the C1 and any possible successors are important tools for getting people out of cars.
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[Jeremy]

The idea of working pedals for some of the obviously not "power assist" e-bikes does seem to be a bit reminiscent of the days when mopeds were also supposed to have working pedals.

What defines "working pedals" anyway? My guess is that you might well comply with the letter of the law by just having auxiliary pedals attached to a generator....................

Jeremy

PS: I am being a bit deliberately provocative on this thread, as I have a personal dislike of poor regulation that is effectively unenforceable. All it does is make life difficult for the enforces and make a mockery of the law.

 

[flecc]

What defines "working pedals" anyway? My guess is that you might well comply with the letter of the law by just having auxiliary pedals attached to a generator....................

Jeremy

PS: I am being a bit deliberately provocative on this thread, as I have a personal dislike of poor regulation that is effectively unenforceable. All it does is make life difficult for the enforces and make a mockery of the law.

Be as provocative as you like Jeremy, nothing better for stimulating discussion.

I think the working pedals question has some clarity, albeit not complete, on the basis that we are supposed to be obeying European pedelec law. That stipulates no power available from the motor without pedalling.

It's only the Civil Service failure to cancel our existing law when implementing the European directive that's left extra confusion on this point here.
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[Miles]

I was referring to the requirement for working pedals in the Low Powered Moped Class. It doesn't seem unreasonable that a pedal-assist bike should have working pedals...

I'd even settle for the existing 25 kph limit for the L.P.M. class, if they did away with the requirement for the motorcycle helmet

 

[Miles]

How about this:

Max. speed limit for all motor vehicles, in urban areas, of 20 mph.

Raise max. power-assisted speed for EAPC to 20 mph.

 

[flecc]

Like it Miles, nice and simple. Our London Mayor also strongly supports the 20 mph limit in urban areas.

With the 20 mph limit making all roads viable at all times, we've got enough streets in London to make all of them one way, never another head on collision and all same direction collisions at the same speed so no appreciable damage.

Add in the minimising of pedestrian injuries and deaths and road safety would no longer be much of a problem.

It would be so safe we could even restart drink driving for Christmas. ( only joking )
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