83.6% Anti-Dumping Tariff on Chinese E-bike. Where the Market will go?

[mike killay]

But there's another way of looking at this. If within the EU with this protectionism, we could design and manufacture e-bikes to sell into the whole European market competitively.

Of course that's always been possible inside the EU as the Germans, Dutch, French, Spanish, Italians and Hungarians have demonstrated. We in the UK have just lacked the will.
.

I think that the weakness of your argument is that within a protected market, there is no real opportunity for true competition and price discovery.
We would end up needing anti trust laws to stop a small number of manufacturers cornering the market

 

[Woosh]

I think that the weakness of your argument is that within a protected market, there is no real opportunity for true competition and price discovery.
We would end up needing anti trust laws to stop a small number of manufacturers cornering the market

non producing members in the EU have no means to protect their own small businesses against the EU's use of anti-dumping in favour of big businesses under the pretext of protecting jobs.
The more immediate effect is less choice and higher cost for the consumers.

 

[flecc]

I think that the weakness of your argument is that within a protected market, there is no real opportunity for true competition and price discovery.
We would end up needing anti trust laws to stop a small number of manufacturers cornering the market

Indeed, every way has its disadvantage. But innovation does let newcomers in, who would have thought any new motor manufacturer could come out of nowhere against the world's giants like GM, Ford, Toyota, VW and Daimer-Benz?

But Tesla is here as a fact and here to very much stay, with all the giants racing to catch up with what they achieved.
.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Biting my tongue re the EU.
Hopefully we will soon be out and able to lobby our own politicians.
Why should we support European firms whose behaviour in all of this seems to me at least to be questionable.
It cannot possibly be of any benefit to me as an EU citizen to be forced to buy expensive German etc. ebikes.

Going to have to pick you up on a couple of things here.

Firstly, and I think this is part of the whole problem with this debate... You seem to be looking at the EU like is something external to us. It is us (currently)... EU Bike brands, by definition includes UK bike brands. Your only problem is you're complaining that the Germans have been better at it than us.

You also seem to be blaming I suspect Bosch... when the pressure for this has come from the bike brands, not the motor brands.

This measure now means the UK eBike industry has the option to assemble bikes here and actually be a UK ebike industry, and employ more people. Rather than simply be essentially sales agents for Chinese factories.

This way there is a level playing field for everyone inside the EU. Assemble your bikes here... you get to have a made in the UK sticker, and you can currently export to all of the EU countries with no duty and/or tariff.

Exploiting this large level playing field is exactly why the bike brands build bikes inside the EU. Even Halfords use EU factories to build their bikes for this reason.

You're not being forced to buy expensive german! Where do you think the Carerra & Voodo bikes sold by Halfords are built?

Your problem is also that your viewing things from a personal level. The benefits are to society, which does effect you. So in this case, the duty is bringing employment and training to the EU from China...

 

[mike killay]

Going to have to pick you up on a couple of things here.

Firstly, and I think this is part of the whole problem with this debate... You seem to be looking at the EU like is something external to us. It is us (currently)... EU Bike brands, by definition includes UK bike brands. Your only problem is you're complaining that the Germans have been better at it than us.

You also seem to be blaming I suspect Bosch... when the pressure for this has come from the bike brands, not the motor brands.

This measure now means the UK eBike industry has the option to assemble bikes here and actually be a UK ebike industry, and employ more people. Rather than simply be essentially sales agents for Chinese factories.

This way there is a level playing field for everyone inside the EU. Assemble your bikes here... you get to have a made in the UK sticker, and you can currently export to all of the EU countries with no duty and/or tariff.

Exploiting this large level playing field is exactly why the bike brands build bikes inside the EU. Even Halfords use EU factories to build their bikes for this reason.

You're not being forced to buy expensive german! Where do you think the Carerra & Voodo bikes sold by Halfords are built?

Your problem is also that your viewing things from a personal level. The benefits are to society, which does effect you. So in this case, the duty is bringing employment and training to the EU from China...

Well, we have an EU thread so I won't go there.
But I take what you say and that is why many years ago I voted for a Common Market.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

This measure now means the UK eBike industry has the option to assemble bikes here and actually be a UK ebike industry, and employ more people. Rather than simply be essentially sales agents for Chinese factories.

As far as Wisper are concerned Col, I have to disagree on this point. We designed our first frame back in 2006 and have been completely involved in every step of manufacturing since then. We own frame and battery case tooling, we have paid for certification on both whole bikes and battery packing. In short we are not a sales agent for Chinese factories in any sense of the phrase, we simply put out the assembly.

We sell bikes as far away as New Zealand and now Canada and South Africa. Surely Asia is the sensible geographical centre for a small business like us? And of course with the possibility of a hard Brexit looming, exporting from UK to Europe may be tricky at the best adding 6% WTO tariffs.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

As far as Wisper are concerned Col, I have to disagree on this point. We designed our first frame back in 2006 and have been completely involved in every step of manufacturing since then. We own frame and battery case tooling, we have paid for certification on both whole bikes and battery packing. In short we are not a sales agent for Chinese factories in any sense of the phrase, we simply put out the assembly.

We sell bikes as far away as New Zealand and now Canada and South Africa. Surely Asia is the sensible geographical centre for a small business like us? And of course with the possibility of a hard Brexit looming, exporting from UK to Europe may be tricky at the best adding 6% WTO tariffs.

Sorry David... I did lump everyone in together and that was wrong of me. I know you guys do far far more than most Chinese bike importers and I'm sorry that I didn't make that clear.

I hope these changes give you the chance to actually benefit and stand out above the rest, as you deserve to.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Sorry David... I did lump everyone in together and that was wrong of me. I know you guys do far far more than most Chinese bike importers and I'm sorry that I didn't make that clear.

I hope these changes give you the chance to actually benefit and stand out above the rest, as you deserve to.

Thanks Col, it's turmoil at the moment but "from chaos comes clarity", I feel very positive about the future. However.... I would still like to win our court case against the EU!

 

[Kudoscycles]

Going to have to pick you up on a couple of things here.

Firstly, and I think this is part of the whole problem with this debate... You seem to be looking at the EU like is something external to us. It is us (currently)... EU Bike brands, by definition includes UK bike brands. Your only problem is you're complaining that the Germans have been better at it than us.

You also seem to be blaming I suspect Bosch... when the pressure for this has come from the bike brands, not the motor brands.

This measure now means the UK eBike industry has the option to assemble bikes here and actually be a UK ebike industry, and employ more people. Rather than simply be essentially sales agents for Chinese factories.

This way there is a level playing field for everyone inside the EU. Assemble your bikes here... you get to have a made in the UK sticker, and you can currently export to all of the EU countries with no duty and/or tariff.

Exploiting this large level playing field is exactly why the bike brands build bikes inside the EU. Even Halfords use EU factories to build their bikes for this reason.

You're not being forced to buy expensive german! Where do you think the Carerra & Voodo bikes sold by Halfords are built?

Your problem is also that your viewing things from a personal level. The benefits are to society, which does effect you. So in this case, the duty is bringing employment and training to the EU from China...

Its not really a fair comparison UK v EU....we dont have the market size of the EU so have no volume of scale....we dont know post brexit what is going to be the export situation (standards/tariffs etc) from UK to EU,so its impossible to invest in a bike assembly operation in the UK and look towards some export.
The Halfords bikes are built in Eastern Europe but we dont know their tariff situation post brexit and in fact we dont know the tariff situation for German built bikes exported to the UK.
In short,the combination of anti dumping duty and brexit has stitched up the UK as far as bicycles are concerned.
KudosDave

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Its not really a fair comparison UK v EU....we dont have the market size of the EU so have no volume of scale....we dont know post brexit what is going to be the export situation (standards/tariffs etc) from UK to EU,so its impossible to invest in a bike assembly operation in the UK and look towards some export.
The Halfords bikes are built in Eastern Europe but we dont know their tariff situation post brexit and in fact we dont know the tariff situation for German built bikes exported to the UK.
In short,the combination of anti dumping duty and brexit has stitched up the UK as far as bicycles are concerned.
KudosDave

The EU is our/your market... that's the point isn't it? The fact that UK companies aren't taking advantage when German ones are is the problem isn't it?

But yes I take the rest of your points.

And also would highlight again, that Brexit is only going to result in more expensive bikes for everyone in the UK... because we don't have a UK industry. Look at every bike brand, and I include component brand in that. 99% comes from overseas.

 

[Kudoscycles]

The EU is our/your market... that's the point isn't it? The fact that UK companies aren't taking advantage when German ones are is the problem isn't it?

But yes I take the rest of your points.

And also would highlight again, that Brexit is only going to result in more expensive bikes for everyone in the UK... because we don't have a UK industry. Look at every bike brand, and I include component brand in that. 99% comes from overseas.

At the moment I agree....for many years we could have developed our bike industry just as the Germans,but we didnt.
In some respects the cheap chinese bikes were a deterrent to making our own. The situation now is unfortunate,that the anti-dumping duty and the uncertainty of brexit have come along at the same time....nobody could plan to build a bike assembly operation in the UK without knowing the size of the market.
From the experience of this anti dumping duty I have a project that must be finished before March 2019,after that no more investment until we see how brexit evolves.
KudosDave

 

[Crockers]

Indeed, every way has its disadvantage. But innovation does let newcomers in, who would have thought any new motor manufacturer could come out of nowhere against the world's giants like GM, Ford, Toyota, VW and Daimer-Benz?

But Tesla is here as a fact and here to very much stay, with all the giants racing to catch up with what they achieved.
.

Tesla are / were the innovators- but to date have yet to make a penny profit. Other manufacturers are now fully onboard with electrification. Therefore I don't agree with your sentence that Tesla are here to very much stay. I see them diversifying away from cars to produce batteries for other manufacturers and even for the ebike industry. Home storage. Solar tiles for roofs. All yes but motor manufacturing was / is a brand advertising and doesn't mean it won't be sold off.

Take Virgin Atlantic. Richard Bransons branding. But now owned by others and turns very little profit. Routes heavily pared back.

 

[flecc]

Tesla are / were the innovators- but to date have yet to make a penny profit. Other manufacturers are now fully onboard with electrification. Therefore I don't agree with your sentence that Tesla are here to very much stay. I see them diversifying away from cars to produce batteries for other manufacturers and even for the ebike industry. Home storage. Solar tiles for roofs. All yes but motor manufacturing was / is a brand advertising and doesn't mean it won't be sold off.

Take Virgin Atlantic. Richard Bransons branding. But now owned by others and turns very little profit. Routes heavily pared back.

But none of that is relevant to the point I made, that in a protectionist environment favouring the existing big boys, innovation can create a successful newcomer.

Nor is Tesla changing their business in future relevant, we'll be seeing the widespread death of the car as personal transport eventually anyway, when they'll all have to remodel what they do or die. That is likely within an existing lifetime.
.

 

[Crockers]

But none of that is relevant to the point I made, that in a protectionist environment favouring the existing big boys, innovation can create a successful newcomer.

Nor is Tesla changing their business in future relevant, we'll be seeing the widespread death of the car as personal transport eventually anyway, when they'll all have to remodel what they do or die. That is likely within an existing lifetime.
.

So you rate Tesla as a successful newcomer?

 

[flecc]

So you rate Tesla as a successful newcomer?

Yes, it's perfectly normal for new businesses to fail to make any profit for quite a while, even years. Indeed it's almost the rule, outside the crazy unreal world of the web.
.

 

[anotherkiwi]

That's what mopeds are for, available cheaply enough for that job as they've long been.
.

The ones that are made in China... Then you have to pay for petrol and insurance and... they screw up the environment.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Yes, it's perfectly normal for new businesses to fail to make any profit for quite a while, even years. Indeed it's almost the rule, outside the crazy unreal world of the web.
.

How many years did Amazon go without making a profit? Who is the current richest man in the world?

 

[anotherkiwi]

Its not really a fair comparison UK v EU....we dont have the market size of the EU so have no volume of scale....we dont know post brexit what is going to be the export situation (standards/tariffs etc) from UK to EU,so its impossible to invest in a bike assembly operation in the UK and look towards some export.
The Halfords bikes are built in Eastern Europe but we dont know their tariff situation post brexit and in fact we dont know the tariff situation for German built bikes exported to the UK.
In short,the combination of anti dumping duty and brexit has stitched up the UK as far as bicycles are concerned.
KudosDave

Was it on your web site that a couple of years ago I read "we don't sell outside of the UK and NI"? The EU is your market, you are in the EU.

 

[flecc]

How many years did Amazon go without making a profit? Who is the current richest man in the world?

"Amazon consistently lost money for its first several years as a public company. It first reported a quarterly profit in the fourth quarter of 2001 and, at $5 million, it barely counted. Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos has long maintained that investing in future growth is more important than hitting quarterly earnings targets, much to Wall Street’s chagrin."
.

 

[flecc]

The ones that are made in China... Then you have to pay for petrol and insurance and... they screw up the environment.

But they are the cheap transport the questioner asked for, and more practical than e-bikes in terms of running costs, reliability and weather protection.

The environmental interests are costly. (He said having just taken delivery of a new 2018 Nissan Leaf):