50 cycles - misleading advertising

[RobF]

Civil litigation should not be entered into lightly - very much a last resort.

But whatever the fine detail, the ASA's 'misleading' ruling is a strong card for the OP to play.

 

[JohnCade]

KMG440

The ASA is not a court of law. They and Trading Standards were up 50 Cycles arses a little while ago over a more serious matter of S pedelecs being sold in a possibly misleading way. I believe another dealer put them on to it. He wanted the sale of S pedelecs stopped, but the ASA has no standing there. The misleading wording was removed but they still sell the bikes which are illegal to use on the road, unless type approved, insured etc.

 

[JohnCade]

I agree, it is best to test-ride a bike. I went to Loughborough to do just this. However, it is pretty flat around there, compared with the Shropshire Hills, where I live. The problems only showed up on a steep hill. Also, the bike which I purchased was not identical to the one tested, as there are (understandably) only a limited range available for test rides. 50 cycles are very good at selling bikes and quick to answer the phone to prospective customers , but, in my experience, less responsive when there are after-sales issues. I would advise others to be extremely cautious when dealing with this company.

What bike did you buy KM? As I posted earlier most Impulse motored bikes are very good on hills.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Regardless of the law, you should do what's morally right, otherwise you might get some bad karma, like having an accident on your replacement. I think you need to stand back, take a few deep breaths and think about what's happened. You made a decision to buy a particular bike, which you're now not happy with because it creaks. if the supplier fixes so that it doesn't creak, you should then live happily ever after with your nice bike regardless of what you think of the supplier. Personally, I think it's wrong to ask for your money back whatever your rights are. I also think it's wrong of the supplier not to sort it out expediently. For speed and convenience, it's often better to have a go at making adjustments yourself or taking your bike to a local bike shop to fix as long as you're not out of pocket. Creaking should be easy to fix. If you had brought it to me, I could probably have fixed it in minutes.

Whenever we get these sort of stand-offs, there's always more to them than what's reported here.

My philosophy is to make sure that when i get to the pearly gates, I can make a strong case for St Peter to stamp my card. All these little things might count towards it. Somebody told me that he didn't get his card stamped, so he had to go in the down lift. When he got there, it didn't look so bad. Everybody was standing round in ** up to their wastes, but there were pretty naked girls and handsome men dishing out tea and coffee while nice music played. It was a bit warm, but tolerable. Then after about 10 minutes a bell rang and a guy dressed in red with horns shouted out, "tea break over. Back on your heads".

 

[Wander]

Some very wise words there from d8veh.

 

[Walklikegump]

Even as an atheist I agree.

 

[oldtom]

So after much probing I think we have identified the real reason she wants to back out of buying it. Which is that the bike isn’t as good on hills as she thought it would be. That’s fairly close to what I surmised from her first post.

John, I think you have nailed it! Why the OP didn't come out in the first place and state clearly that the bike wasn't suitable because it required too much effort on hills, I can't imagine.

Having just looked at 50Cycles' current range of EAPCs, I can't see how any of the Impulse-driven bikes could disappoint on hills which only leaves the Groove F7 model, one I have never ridden. My experience of the Impulse drive is limited to the Mk 1 edition which I found pretty reasonable and I understand the Mk 2 is much better.

My choice 18 months ago was the Xion model reduced in their January sale and I'm bound to say that goes up hills incredibly well for a rear hub-drive, (DD) and I compared it on the day with an Impulse-drive Agattu at Tim Snaith's suggestion and I found there wasn't a lot between them in my opinion although the Xion felt a little bit quicker across the ground; it actually feels quite sporty! The price at that time was the clincher for me and I have no regrets at making the Xion my choice, even though I have always been a big fan of crank-driven bikes.

So, as the Groove model is an unknown quantity to me and knowing that all the rest of the current range climb hills very well, my guess is that the OP bought one of those. I'd like to know because after experience of Chinese machines, I'm wondering if there was an expectation of being able to climb hills without pedalling, perhaps? I don't think any of the current crop of Kalkhoff bikes permit throttle-only propulsion so if that is the problem, the OP didn't research the matter well enough.

Tom

 

[trex]

The Groove does not cost £2000. The bike looks more like this one:
http://www.50cycles.com/electric-bikes/comfort/tasman_impulse_8_hs_11ah.html

 

[oldtom]

The Groove does not cost £2000. The bike looks more like this one:
http://www.50cycles.com/electric-bikes/comfort/tasman_impulse_8_hs_11ah.html

OK, the bit about price escaped me but, that being the case, I can't imagine that bike being a disappointment to anyone over hilly terrain unless there was an expectation of throttle-only propulsion.

I'm still curious.

Tom

 

[JohnCade]

John, I think you have nailed it! Why the OP didn't come out in the first place and state clearly that the bike wasn't suitable because it required too much effort on hills, I can't imagine.

Having just looked at 50Cycles' current range of EAPCs, I can't see how any of the Impulse-driven bikes could disappoint on hills which only leaves the Groove F7 model, one I have never ridden. My experience of the Impulse drive is limited to the Mk 1 edition which I found pretty reasonable and I understand the Mk 2 is much better.

My choice 18 months ago was the Xion model reduced in their January sale and I'm bound to say that goes up hills incredibly well for a rear hub-drive, (DD) and I compared it on the day with an Impulse-drive Agattu at Tim Snaith's suggestion and I found there wasn't a lot between them in my opinion although the Xion felt a little bit quicker across the ground; it actually feels quite sporty! The price at that time was the clincher for me and I have no regrets at making the Xion my choice, even though I have always been a big fan of crank-driven bikes.

So, as the Groove model is an unknown quantity to me and knowing that all the rest of the current range climb hills very well, my guess is that the OP bought one of those. I'd like to know because after experience of Chinese machines, I'm wondering if there was an expectation of being able to climb hills without pedalling, perhaps? I don't think any of the current crop of Kalkhoff bikes permit throttle-only propulsion so if that is the problem, the OP didn't research the matter well enough.

Tom

Yes, that was what I thought about the Chinese bikes. Powerful hub drives maybe? It’s probably about the well aired difference between crank drive and hub drive, and torque sensor and speed sensor too. If you’re used to a speed sensor hub drive bike it’s probably a bit of a shock having to pedal to get the power. If she persisted though she would find that it would go uphill with very little real effort and she would get fitter too.

I’ve got the Impulse 1 and it’s powerful enough for me, and I tried the Impulse 11 before Christmas and that is more powerful still. I was cruising up some steep hills in Cotham near 50 Cycles shop in Bristol in about sixth gear.

 

[flecc]

It probably is an expectation that the bike will climb hills with little or no effort, we often get posts in the introduce yourself section asking for recommendations for e-bikes that will climb steep hills with little or no pedalling.

One problem is the insistence everywhere of using the misleading term Electric Bike instead of Electric Assist Bike. Even in this pedelecs site, the forum names say Electric Bicycle or Electric Bike. I think if the word Assist was included all the time, there would be less chance of a misunderstanding.
.

 

[oldtom]

One problem is the insistence everywhere of using the misleading term Electric Bike instead of Electric Assist Bike. Even in this pedelecs site, the forum names say Electric Bicycle or Electric Bike. I think if the word Assist was included all the time, there would be less chance of a misunderstanding.
.

That's true Flecc and although I try to stick to the EAPC moniker in describing our bicycles, I sometimes relapse into ebike or electric bike terminology. I have to think that the concept of assisted pedalling is the appropriate paradigm for bicycles supported by battery-powered motive assistance rather than other systems permitting propulsion completely independent of pedal power.

From my own experience of differing drive configurations, it seems we have reached a point in the gestation of EAPCs where there isn't much to choose between front hub, rear hub and crank-driven motors. My present steed has a large DD rear motor with a sophisticated optical sensor and it feels to all intents and purposes like a Panasonic crank-drive though somewhat gutsier.

While I can see how a throttle could be useful to some people in certain circumstances, most of the so-equipped machines I have come across are rarely pedalled at all, seemingly just a chair for fat, lazy people to get from home to bookie to Wetherspoon's.

Tom

 

[flecc]

.
While I can see how a throttle could be useful to some people in certain circumstances, most of the so-equipped machines I have come across are rarely pedalled at all, seemingly just a chair for fat, lazy people to get from home to bookie to Wetherspoon's.

Tom

Brings to mind Thompson senior a few years ago. In his five stores he very successfully sold shopper style e-bikes from 2002 on. A to B magazine when testing some questioned the very low pedal gearing which only allowed up to about 8 mph pedal assist and the bikes only motoring up to about 12 mph.

Thompson replied "Our customers don't pedal, won't pedal".

He was no fool though, they sold at least 8000 e-bikes each year back then, making them the largest supplier in the UK, and showing that no pedalling was what most customers really do want.

They still sell these shopper e-bikes but with one concession to modernity with their K model. I doubt most pedelecs members are even aware of this company though!

Thompsons Electric Bicycles
.
.

 

[JohnCade]

I am. A near neighbour bought one over ten years ago, bear in mind that I live in a very hilly area. I saw him trying to get it up the hill to where he lives and he was not favourably impressed. He said it was a fcuking joke in fact. It went into an outbuilding, and for all I know it’s still there.

 

[flecc]

I am. A near neighbour bought one over ten years ago, bear in mind that I live in a very hilly area. I saw him trying to get it up the hill to where he lives and he was not favourably impressed. He said it was a fcuking joke in fact. It went into an outbuilding, and for all I know it’s still there.

Yes, they weren't suitable for steeper hills, up to 8% ok or maybe 10% for lighter riders. It seems from accounts that most bought for fairly gentle needs, shortish trips to local shops etc, so for them they were fine.
.

 

[Kuorider]

Anyone considering an ebike and finding this forum must wonder if these things are worth the apparent hassle and expense. When out and about one of the first things I am asked is 'what happens if it goes wrong'. The impression folks get is that this ebike thing is still very much in the realm of 'Dads in sheds' who seem to be the only ones who can sort these out properly. It's all very well remote dealers saying 'take it to your bike shop' but most shops will not touch ebikes nor any newish faulty bike not sourced from them.

 

[trex]

Yes, they weren't suitable for steeper hills, up to 8% ok or maybe 10% for lighter riders. It seems from accounts that most bought for fairly gentle needs, shortish trips to local shops etc, so for them they were fine.
.

I tried one Thompson Classic in 2010 when they still came with SLA. It could not manage a 5%-6% hill without pedalling hard.

Look at them now:

 

[Kudoscycles]

It's a shame that matters come to arguments on forums,in the old way you would have taken it back to the shop and told them it wasn't what you expected and got your money back,the bike would have been put in the window with an ex demo sign and £100 off,all were happy.
The internet is a wonderful medium but it has created as many problems as it solves and it is now supported by so much government regulations that every trader has to be a lawyer these days. Our attitude is trying to be fair,we had a customer,well publicised on this forum who almost wrecked his bike after 10 months hard usage,we and our dealer tried everything to satisfy that guy,to be fair having read the facts I got a lot of support on this forum,the guy went to trading standards,his card chargeback,local citizens advice and a lawyer,all told him that he was being unreasonable.
In contrast we had a lady in Edinburgh,who had the bike for a month,tried to ride it but it was just too big for her,she offered to pay for the cost of return if we would kindly take it back....of course,it became a slightly used bike £100 off,sold long ago.
The point I am making is that it needs a balanced attitude from both sides,these distant selling regs and sales acts are all very well but it turns some customers into armchair lawyers,Victor Meldrew attitudes,when all that is needed is to pick up the phone and be reasonable.
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

I tried one Thompson Classic in 2010 when they still came with SLA. It could not manage a 5%-6% hill without pedalling hard.

Look at them now:

That K model isn't just "now", they introduced it round about 2007 to try to share the more modern market as well, but have always continued with the Classic style shopper models and have never expanded on the K theme.

Of course they don't sell many of them these days, their big years were 2003/4/5 when prices started at £350 and they were impulse purchases for many.
.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Didn't they change the motors? I thought that the original ones had a high torque brushed motor, while as the latest ones have a normal 250w brushless one.