36v hub conversion - fast commuter

[jarob10]

I'm already riding a modified Boardman 29" bike with a bbs01 - at 18amps I can hold 27 mph foc on the flat.

I'd like to remove the bbs01 and experiment with a rear wheel hub drive to achieve similar speeds, but would like to use the same 36V battery I already own (17.4Ah Lithium Ion Frame Battery 29E Samsung Cells)

I'm aware a 36v hubmotor (such as q100) running at 48v would do the job, but I'd rather not have to buy another battery.

So my question is, is there a rear hub motor, contained within a 29"rim, that could match the bbs01 performance and provide assistance to allow me to maintain 27mph using a 36v 29e battery?

 

[Nealh]

As a strong rider the 328rpm Q128C or Q100c may well give you that speed @36v on the flat but unlike the BBS climbing ability will be hampered and the hub may get warm.

The 201rpm on my 700c can manage 18 - 22mph, my
Bafang 270rpm can manage 24mph on my Boardman Theoretically it is feasible with the correct winding.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

You need a 328 rpm Q128C and run it at 20 amps, assuming that your battery has a BMS capable of sustaining that. That motor will assist you to about 30 mph, but power will reduce from about 25 mph.

 

[jarob10]

You need a 328 rpm Q128C and run it at 20 amps, assuming that your battery has a BMS capable of sustaining that. That motor will assist you to about 30 mph, but power will reduce from about 25 mph.

99% of my riding is on the flat, so happy to sacrifice torque for mph. Here is my battery:

http://eclipsebikes.com/product_info.php?products_id=144

Would the 36v 328rpm q128c be the optimum choice?

Donor bike in question, with bbs01 fitted (about to be removed)

 

[anotherkiwi]

That is a very good battery for a KT 15 A sine wave controller and the 18 A BBS01 controller used at moderate assistance levels with the occasional burst at max assistance.

Cell info:
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Samsung INR18650-29E 2900mAh (Blue) UK.html

 

[Deleted member 4366]

It's difficult to say what's best because there's lots of different performance characteristics of the different motors to compare. The Q128C is right in the range you want. I'm assuming that you want relatively light-weight. Obviously, a 1500w DD motor with a a 25AH 52V battery and a 40 amp controller would do it with ease.

If you go for the Q128c, a sine-wave controller is absolutely imperative, ideally a Kunteng (KT) one.

 

[Nealh]

J10's battery should be good as it has the 29E six in P, so 42/45a pulse draw is more then ample for a 20a KT controller.

 

[jarob10]

[QUOTE="d8veh, post: 402454, member: 4366"If you go for the Q128c, a sine-wave controller is absolutely imperative, ideally a Kunteng (KT) one.[/QUOTE]

Would this controller be the ideal version (not an ideal form factor as I have an 08 battery case I believe)

https://bmsbattery.com/controller/698-sine-wave-controller-for-09-case-controller.html

Or perhaps this one (although wouldn't know which pas system to choose)?
http://www.pswpower.com/peng/iview.asp?KeyID=dtpic-2016-3F-33C0.50CGS

 

[Nealh]

The 09 controller kit is for the integration of the 09 Dolphin battery, it doesn't fit HL O8 style battery. On price the PSWPower might be better and has better heat sink and more air space.
PSWPower KT controllers are quiet, use and fit the pas sensor and the throttle as both work independently of each other. Controller has wire/connector linked to disable high speed simply disconnect to get full speed.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

You can use that 09 controller separately from the battery. Stick it in a tool-bag or fix it to one of the other bottle fixing screws. In fact you can fit it anywhere that's convenient using its single fixing. It probable gives you more options than a box-type controller. Remove its battery connector and blank off the hole. You could even grind off all that superstructure for the connection, which is empty, and replace it with a flat plate, which would make it much smaller and even more convenient.

I found a bung that fits perfectly in mine:


Having said all that, i prefer the conventional connectors on the box-type, so I'd probably go with the PSWPower one and pay a bit more. The conventional connectors are better for testing, which is virtually impossible with the waterproof moulded type.

 

[jarob10]

Thanks all for the information. From an installation point of view the 09 controller looks the easiest to mount, I'm thinking way low down, just above the bottom bracket & behind the seat post down tube, with the wires exiting vertically downwards. Rivnut or cable ties, depending on mass, to secure.

Bmsbattery have been really helpful and given me a quote this morning.

A few more questions:

1. Are both the controller options listed above manufactured by kunteng?
2. I'm presuming the 09 controller can be derestricted for max mph?
3. My bbs01 setup is displayless, defaulting to 100% current & 100% mph PAS setting when the battery is switched on. Could either / both of these controllers be configured in a similar way?

 

[Nealh]

Both controllers are KT.
Unlike the BBS you can't make wholesale changes with a programming lead however you can make
some changes via the P & C parameter settings.
Both need a LCD (KT) to make any parameter changes, as the factory settings are unknown.
And both need the LCD for max speed adjustment though the PSWPower one also has restriction wire/connection.

The LCD P parameter settings allow you to;
1. Set the hub timing to run smoother.
2. Set the wheel speed.
3. Adjust the pas mode either speed or current control.
4. Allow throttle activity
5. Set battery voltage mode.

LCD C settings has 15 other settings;
allowing adjustment to controller voltage, pas timing, controller current and other less important features.

 

[Nealh]

A few more questions:

1. Are both the controller options listed above manufactured by kunteng?
2. I'm presuming the 09 controller can be derestricted for max mph?
3. My bbs01 setup is displayless, defaulting to 100% current & 100% mph PAS setting when the battery is switched on. Could either / both of these controllers be configured in a similar way?

The BBS keep current is factory set and only changeable via programming so by default doesn't give 100% total current. Both my BBS controller were set at 25 & 30% keep current level though it would deliver 100% of the set values.
Keep current of 60% is about the most some one has reported as seeing from the factory.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Top speed on the KT is 72 km/h all controllers (3) I have received were set to that by default.

 

[jarob10]

Both controllers are KT.
Unlike the BBS you can't make wholesale changes with a programming lead however you can make
some changes via the P & C parameter settings.
Both need a LCD (KT) to make any parameter changes, as the factory settings are unknown.
And both need the LCD for max speed adjustment though the PSWPower one also has restriction wire/connection.

The LCD P parameter settings allow you to;
1. Set the hub timing to run smoother.
2. Set the wheel speed.
3. Adjust the pas mode either speed or current control.
4. Allow throttle activity
5. Set battery voltage mode.

LCD C settings has 15 other settings;
allowing adjustment to controller voltage, pas timing, controller current and other less important features.

Thanks for the info Nealh.

Is there any need to keep the display installed once the P&C parameters are set?

My experience with the bbs01 is that a display on the bike attracts the wrong kind of attention from the public!

The bbs01 needed a slight tweak to the controller wiring to allow displayless operation - I just wondered if something similar could be done with the 09 or pswpower controller.

 

[Nealh]

Thanks for the info Nealh.

Is there any need to keep the display installed once the P&C parameters are set?
.

I can't be sure whether or not the controller will revert to a default setting.
The controller as such isn't being hard programmed, instead it is receiving commands from the lcd which changes parameter settings by command. Changing parameters via the lcd relies on comms between controller and lcd which use the rx/tx lines for info transfer back and forth.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

You can run without the LCD, but it's needed to set the power level. To me, it wouldn't make sense to run without the LCD.

 

[jarob10]

Which cassette should I use with the q128c?

Can I use my tried and trusted PG1030
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/mobile/sram-pg1030-10-speed-mtb-cassette/rp-prod67864

Or does it need to be this version?
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-parts/697-sunrace-cassettes-freewheel-parts.html#/353-speed_level-10_speed

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Ideally, it should be one that matches your derailleur and shifter. The motor will take any one with a Shimano spline.

 

[jarob10]

You need a 328 rpm Q128C and run it at 20 amps, assuming that your battery has a BMS capable of sustaining that. That motor will assist you to about 30 mph, but power will reduce from about 25 mph.

Here’s the finished product, bbs01 removed, and 500w 328rpm Q128C laced into a matching mavic xm319 36 spoke rim. BMS battery 20A controller fitted under downtube.



Pas left in 9 full time, I know not all forum members approve of this Certainly makes her lively whilst filtering through traffic - for me, lively in a good way

350w BBS01 is faster when comparing like for like Strava segments, due to power all but disappearing at 27 mph Ish (speed limited lifted out of the way of course)

Next job to clear handlebars of redundant display & control buttons