28mph / 45kph pedelec with good range for commuting.

[semiless]

I need to commute 40 miles (80 total)
Which is what I intend to use it for. I can recharge at work. I got 4k - 5000quid in my pocket!

I've been comparing alot of models the past 2 days and can't make up my mind.
Preferably I want a pedelec that hits 28 mph (45kph)
But the range achieved on the higher motor settings on any model suffers greatly (duh).
They all have a range anywhere from 25miles to 60+ miles.
But I can expect about 1/3rd the total distance when I use the higher power settings.
For a 40 mile commute distance I need the 28 mph speed without the motor failing to get there in time.

How do I know which speed pedelecs falls under above criteria.

Since I'm a road biker I have excellent condition and stamina. Does your own condition greatly affect the range they can achieve? I know it must be, but like I said, does it do it 'greatly'?

I hope I can achieve 24mph on a lower power setting to achieve the commute distance. I preferably wouldn't want to go slower then that considering the distance and commute time.
Hopefully I can do this without the battery failing where it would have at a higher setting. This would be good enough imo.

I don't necessarily need to hit 28mph exact.
But there are no range tests you can perform on a test ride so that's why I registered to create this thread.

My own investigation has led me to understand that there aren't any bikes with the range and power I'm looking for.

Extra batteries?

So if there are models with which I can swap battery packs, could I buy a 2nd one and swap it enroute whenever it's drained? This is an abvious yes! But that said, are there bikes you'd recommend where one could do this with? Hopefully that means you can actually buy secondary battery packs. Let's hope so! I tried to look but can't find reputable spare part vendors if there are any. I'm sure it depends per bike.

I got a few coins!

Ok, I'm not lieng, I preferably want this over a new car anyday. So my budget is pretty high.
I got about 4000-5000+ quid, more if I include a secondary battery pack to achieve my goal in terms of range capability. And even more if you get me winded up with something that releases my horny consumer instinct. But my investigation is that above that price range you wont get much better. Unless your going much higher.

Other points:

-I already got a road bike but not a mountainbike. Is there a good mountainbike type pedelec I can have fun with? I was specifically looking for one, but well, the dilemma of my requirements (see above)
-Good brakes! Not necessarily hydraulic ones but obviously with brake discs.
-good suspension isn't necessary perse. Unless it is a mountainbike your going to recommend. It's not that I would necessarily want one as long as it does as described above.
-bike carrier is absolutely unnecessary! I need a rucksack for my equipment and work related stuff anyway. Maybe I can fit a secondary battery pack in there if it is required to meet my goal. But I see most of them have a carrier on anyway.
-I really have never seen the outweighing pros of electronic shifting. If it just happens to be a bike that got it meeting all other requirements then it is a fun extra. But there are few other things I care less about.
-No fancy brands that ask more money for the logo then the technology and engineering of the bike itself?
So no i.e. Stromer or other Gucci's in the pedelec market please.
Unless it happens to be the only choice to meet all^ req coincidentally.

Quite a bit of information but I hope its on point and that you know what I'm looking for.


Kind regards,


The new guy!

 

[Croxden]

I took one of my daughters boyfriends a ride, he had the Haibike, I had the Delite.
He rides a lot, very fit, lots of stamina and carbon bikes but he came back knackered.

It's different on an ebike, people think you don't do much with having assistance. So test a few different types before you commit.

 

[nemesis]

I have two bikes and they both will easily cruise at 30 mph,a Cube carbon with the Bosch CX motor and a Bafang 1500w BBSHD mounted on a specialized MTB.
The Cube is for sale 2017 model in the classifieds.The Bafang however is a LOT of fun because of the power paired up with a 20ah battery.

 

[semiless]

@nemesis

I'm not at the point where I even considered assembling parts to a otherwise unmotorized roadbike. Because that's what your getting at here right?
Any chance you got close up pics on the cube carbon? I'm interested.
It seems a rather cost saving option if I could assemble parts onto it myself. But I'm new to this so help me in the general direction if you can

@cronden

My eyes were also at the Riese muller Delite. It seems to have decent enough power and having the option for a secondary battery pack is really awesome aswell. This is definitely one of the few on my current list.

As for your daughters boyfriend.
When I was a teen I used to overachieve myself. I would probably go ape crazy and try to go over the assisted speed limit to turn back exhausted and blame it on the bike or anything other then yourself

On summer days when I'm fit, trained and in the mood I sometimes make 90 mile tours on my normal roadbike. I'm spent when I'm done, definitely.
Then I don't see how I would get knackered when I do have assist. That just really makes to much sense to me, but hey, you guys are the experts.
I definitely try and test this for myself. But I would be stupified if I would get as tired or even more. I don't have this problem on my normal city e-bike so I'm not sure how it would work differently on a high powered pedelec.

Thanks for sharing the concern anyway.

 

[Danidl]

@nemesis

I'm not at the point where I even considered assembling parts to a otherwise unmotorized roadbike. Because that's what your getting at here right?
Any chance you got close up pics on the cube carbon? I'm interested.
It seems a rather cost saving option if I could assemble parts onto it myself. But I'm new to this so help me in the general direction if you can

@cronden

My eyes were also at the Riese muller Delite. It seems to have decent enough power and having the option for a secondary battery pack is really awesome aswell. This is definitely one of the few on my current list.

As for your daughters boyfriend.
When I was a teen I used to overachieve myself. I would probably go ape crazy and try to go over the assisted speed limit to turn back exhausted and blame it on the bike or anything other then yourself

On summer days when I'm fit, trained and in the mood I sometimes make 90 mile tours on my normal roadbike. I'm spent when I'm done, definitely.
Then I don't see how I would get knackered when I do have assist. That just really makes to much sense to me, but hey, you guys are the experts.
I definitely try and test this for myself. But I would be stupified if I would get as tired or even more. I don't have this problem on my normal city e-bike so I'm not sure how it would work differently on a high powered pedelec.

Thanks for sharing the concern anyway.

Semi, you can probably do the math yourself.. how long does it take you to do your 90 miles .. that gives you the miles per hour. There are a number of web calculators giving power consumption in watts at various speeds. .. I posted a link some weeks ago from a tyre manufacturer .
Power consumption rises rapidly with speed, due to wind resistance. Then assume a battery motor is 80% efficient , look at the size of the battery in watt hrs and the difference will be your input.

 

[anotherkiwi]

A second hand vélomobile would be ideal for your range and budget. Without electric assist in your physical condition, you didn't talk about hills but if there are you could add a motor to help move the extra weight in the climbs. I would guess you could easily hold 35-40 km/h average over your commute in a vélomobile.

Other advantages:

- you are out of the weather
- there is space for your rucksack inside in the dry

 

[nemesis]

A second hand vélomobile would be ideal for your range and budget. Without electric assist in your physical condition, you didn't talk about hills but if there are you could add a motor to help move the extra weight in the climbs. I would guess you could easily hold 35-40 km/h average over your commute in a vélomobile.

Other advantages:

- you are out of the weather
- there is space for your rucksack inside in the dry

I like the look of the velomobile because a fairly fit rider can get to incredible speed.

 

[nemesis]

Here are some pictures of the cube that is for sale,set up for fast road riding with slicks and unlimited deristrictor,full carbon frame and seatpost.

 

[preciseposter]

This Giant Road bike in the avatar is hardly slower on the straight and actually faster downhill than my 8.8Kilo Boardman Carbon Road.

In American spec it does 26mph and faster in Canada. If I was to mod it to match American spec or faster then I would be liable to punitive action by the police.

I also have a 12 year old Honda that has averaged 172 miles a year for all of those 12 years. Assuming 46 working weeks a year then your commute would put 18,400 miles on the Honda. It is possible on a 750 BMW and with a max five year work life but on a small motorbike or pedelec - no chance.

Repairs, maintenance and servicing/parts depreciation would be the same price as a season ticket. Not to mention what it would do to you covering that distance on a bleak, icy, winters night.

 

[anotherkiwi]

I like the look of the velomobile because a fairly fit rider can get to incredible speed.

I hope D8ve isn't reading you! Even slightly older riders can also get to incredible speeds from what he reports. Remove (or greatly diminish) air resistance in the cycling equation and moderate fitness is enough to move briskly. A motor removes the pain from launching to 25 km/h and climbing with a vehicle which weighs just short of 30 kg.

 

[preciseposter]

I hope D8ve is not older than me. I will hit 70 next year. Nobody deserves to be older than that

I do believe however that the Giant Road or it's new generation replacements will keep me cycling until I am 80.

I can imagine an e-bike for the road weighing in at 12kilo, with a range of 140 miles and all removable batteries concealed in the frame - in about 3 years from now. I can imagine a not-so-fit cyclist repeating a stage of La Tour the day after and replicating the time that Froome set the day before.

The big changes for off-road were a few years back. The big changes for road are just around the corner.

 

[RobF]

I hope D8ve is not older than me. I will hit 70 next year. Nobody deserves to be older than that

I do believe however that the Giant Road or it's new generation replacements will keep me cycling until I am 80.

I can imagine an e-bike for the road weighing in at 12kilo, with a range of 140 miles and all removable batteries concealed in the frame - in about 3 years from now. I can imagine a not-so-fit cyclist repeating a stage of La Tour the day after and replicating the time that Froome set the day before.

The big changes for off-road were a few years back. The big changes for road are just around the corner.

What you say may happen, but history is very strongly against it.

The widespread adoption of lithium batteries from about 10 years ago was a step forward.

But since then there has been very little development.

A Bosch bike from 2010 performs - and weighs - all but the same as one of next year's models.

So that's no effective development in eight years.

When batteries were invented more than 200 years ago, they were big and heavy.

Fast forward two centuries, and batteries are still big and heavy.

To get 140miles at range at Tour de France speed would require a battery pack alone weighing 15+kg, then there's the motor, the controller, and the bike.

Total of 30+kg.

'Develpments' are not going to cut that weight by a two thirds in three years.

More likely, it may reduce by about 10 per cent in 10 years, or probably longer.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

What you say may happen, but history is very strongly against it.

The widespread adoption of lithium batteries from about 10 years ago was a step forward.

But since then there has been very little development.

A Bosch bike from 2010 performs - and weighs - all but the same as one of next year's models.

So that's no effective development in eight years.

When batteries were invented more than 200 years ago, they were big and heavy.

Fast forward two centuries, and batteries are still big and heavy.

To get 140miles at range at Tour de France speed would require a battery pack alone weighing 15+kg, then there's the motor, the controller, and the bike.

Total of 30+kg.

'Develpments' are not going to cut that weight by a two thirds in three years.

More likely, it may reduce by about 10 per cent in 10 years, or probably longer.

You're miles off. Battery development has been substantial since 2010. Specific capacity (wh/kg) is roughly doubling every 5 years. In addition to that, specific power (watts/kg) has increased by a factor of about 4.

Their first Bosch battery in 2011 was 300wh. It's now 500wh. Relative to other brands, they haven't progressed as far because of the timing. Their timing allowed them to take advantage of a step improvement in cells in 2010.

Roughly, we're seeing a 10% improvement in capacity every year and something like 40% improvement in power.

Investment in battery technology is increasing exponentially, so it would be reasonable to assume that the rate of increase in performance will also increase. It wouldn't surprise me to see some real step changes durung the next 5 years.

 

[RobF]

You're miles off. Battery development has been substantial since 2010. Specific capacity (wh/kg) is roughly doubling every 5 years. In addition to that, specific power (watts/kg) has increased by a factor of about 4.

Their first Bosch battery in 2011 was 300wh. It's now 500wh. Relative to other brands, they haven't progressed as far because of the timing. Their timing allowed them to take advantage of a step improvement in cells in 2010.

Roughly, we're seeing a 10% improvement in capacity every year and something like 40% improvement in power.

Investment in battery technology is increasing exponentially, so it would be reasonable to assume that the rate of increase in performance will also increase. It wouldn't surprise me to see some real step changes durung the next 5 years.

Ten per cent every year?

Some dodgy arithmetic there.

I had a 400wh Bosch battery in 2011, or possibly 2012.

Five/six years on my 500wh battery is, of course, larger capacity, but its size and weight is the same, if not more.

By your thinking, we should now routinely have 700+wh batteries which are both smaller and lighter.

At current rate of progress, that is years and years away.

The push to electric cars and the storage of generated power has recently been given an extra shove by government, which can only help to drive battery technology.

But as we've already seen, what suits a car doesn't easily suit an ebike.

Another way forward would be to develop a motor/controller that somehow produces enough power to propel an ebike, but doesn't drain the battery as quickly.

What progess has there been in that area in recent years?

Not much, today's 36v legal ebikes are a bit pokier on high settings than the often 24v bikes I tried when I got into ebiking, but the downside is they slurp power.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I had a 400wh Bosch battery in 2011, or possibly 2012.

Your memory is playing tricks with you. Bosch started with the 300wh battery in 2011. The 400wh one wasn't available 'til mid 2013.

 

[Solarbake]

I have an sped and commute 20 miles each way using it on turbo to keep near 28mph your knacker the battery a lot faster,i can average about 23mph over the 20 miles if i use a high setting like sport with some turbo but usually average about 20-21 mph about 55 mins each way ,so your commutes going to be nearly 2 hours each way.I had my battery recelled by jimmy at bga and i could easily get to work and back on a single charge,i normally use two of the five bars on intuvia display going to work,but i have a second charger and always top it back up.