21700 battery build

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
20,917
8,533
61
West Sx RH
Having bought the Moli P42's, I have quickly built the battery up ready for use.
Being only 12s2p the battery is just shy of 370wh at 8.4ah, but can easily do more then 40a continuously.

The first job I do is cut the first and last cell buss so I can pre solder ready for the discharge wires to be soldered on.
DSCF1406.JPG

Next is to spread/fan the wire ends out and solder on to the buss.
Doing this now means no heat is applied to the cells causing severe heating up.
DSCF1407.JPG


The BMS is a 12s same port model so charge and dsicharge all occur at the XT60 lead. Discharge should have a female connector so the two ports are seperated.
Sitting on the bms is the charge connector, xt60 male to 5.5mm x 2.1mm male to fit my 12s charger using the std 5.5 x 2.1 female connector.
Inline fuse on the discharge for protection.
I measure and cut all my BMS wires and solder them before starting the battery welding,]once I have worked out the BMS position I then decide where any exterior wiring will end up.

DSCF1413.JPG


Cells placed in the holders with insulator ring on the + end for a bit more safety.
DSCF1414.JPG

The interconnector are 0.1mm copper with a cheap nickel coated steel buss on top, the sandwich of the copper gives better current flow. Simply sandwiching the copper between cell steel ends and a slotted bit of H strip on top allows better spot welds then pure copper alone, the H strip gives better penetration thru the copper in to the steel can end. For the likes of the malectric spot welder I am using, the nickel coated steel H strip is purely used for the ability to spot weld the copper easier.
As in the first two pics preparing the discharge wires saves the execessive heating on the battery ends and all one has to do is apply eight welds each end..
DSCF1415.JPG

My setting is 45 pulses for a good strong weld, previoulsy using pure nickel one had to use 54 pulses to get a good weld, simply using the cheaper steel strip one has less resistance.
I run the malectrics off a turnigy graphene 3s 65c lipo and use a foot pedal for activating the welds manually, once I have the probes positioned.
I have had the malectrics for 3.5 years now and it performs perfectly, for 130 euors it was a good purchase, making ones own battery is no cheaper for a one off then buying one. The difference is though one can use whatever cells he or she wishes so can pick the cell for the application. In my case a lightish weight battery capable of 30 - 40 miles using nice cells, the P42A in this case and the light weight LG HG2 bottle battery in the my last build. I simply don't need to carry 4kg of battery around when instead < 2kg or 1.3kg suffices for my needs.
DSCF1416.JPG

The senses wires are run of the mill simple small solders on to the corresponding buss 's for which I didn't take pics.
So on this pic I have illustrated the cell sequence. One can't willy nilly solder the wires on they have to correspond with the sequence on the bms connection.
One will find with BMS there are xx positive cell wires and one extra Black B0/B1 wire.
This wire always go to the negative end of the first cell group as indicated by the Blue dot, the positive cells on this side are all the even numbered cells and the opposite side the positive is the odd number cell groups.
The voltage and current has to flow like winding river in Series , so from the 0v marked can the flow is down then up then down and up and so on to the last cell which is the Red series connection.
I mark the cell insulators with a marker pen on the + end 1 - 12 and make sure the corresponding sense wire is matched up.
My cells are at 3.5/3.51v so the voltage I have written corresponds with readings I get.
InkedDSCF1415_LI.jpg

The final battery heat shrunk, under the heat shrink I use 0.4 mm FR4 insulation grp board for a bit of stiif protection for the cells and a bit of capton tape.
I have soldered on an extra 13 wire jst lead to the exterior, should I ever encounter imbalance I don't have to open the pack up.
Total weight come in at 1.98kg.
The pack it self will sit in a padded battery case when I order one from china.
DSCF1417.JPG
 
Last edited:

guerney

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 7, 2021
11,425
3,246
The interconnector are 0.1mm copper with a cheap nickel coated steel buss on to
What is the max current that combination is capable of carrying, and how do you work that out?

My setting is 45 pulses for a good strong weld, previoulsy using pure nickel one had to use 54 pulses to get a good weld, simply using the cheaper steel strip one has less resistance.
What duration are the pulses are set for? Did you damage sacrificial cells determining what settings worked best?

Where's the best place to buy genuine cells in the UK?
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
20,917
8,533
61
West Sx RH
A1.
Current for copper is 4x greater then pure Ni and approx. 8x that of Ni plated steel.
The Ni plated steel is purely to make copper buss usable with the arduino based spot welders and to add rigidity. It is pointless using copper and pure ni together when ni palted steel gives less resistance when welding.
Jimmy the batt man has a dogs 30k machine to do copper direct.

Max copper thickness is not much more then 0.15mm or 0.2mm with arduino based spot welders.
The Kweld is pricier and better then the malectric for this and can do copper direct, I can't grumble at the malectrics quality or performance. It is more then I need for my diy self builds.
One though still needs a very good battery source to deliver the power and a high c rate lipo or prismatic cell is ideal.

Pure NI l current rating is approx. 4.1a 1mm2 optimal.
Copper is 15a 1mm2 optimal .
One can go approx. 50% higher current wise for it to be exceptable but expect some wattage loss due to heat loss via the buss.
The copper size I used was 0.08mm x 32mm so 2.56mm2 or 39a optimal current flow, however unless one is using high current draw controllers one is always going to be well with in any current demand.
For buss size the width and thickness of the material is the factors involved to calculate current transfer. The nickel plated steel adds approx. 4a total to the current flow.
The slits in the ni plated steel simply directs the weld power downwards otherwise with no slit it is weakened as the weld power is deflected sideways.

If I had used just pure Ni H strip then the combined current load of the strip would have been 10a so I would have to double up on the strip just to get near the target max current needed. So copper is the go to material for good current flow.

A.2
Yes one needs to test the pulse required, cell cans aren't special they are just tin cans of tin steel mix.
I have old knackered cells saved for testing on, so for instance Billy's crap liitokala's make for good practice. Alterntively snap off craft knife blades are pretty identical in metal thickness and quality so one can practice welding to them.
One is looking for a weld they can't be pulled off readily, pulled off with pliers and leaving material behind is good. With the blade technique one can check the blade opposing face for burn thru and bluing, one wants the minimum possible as this means heat that could damage the cell chemistry.
On the plus end one can spot any where on the raised cap, on the neg end (flat bottom) one needs to steer clear of dead center and try and weld off center. Dead center is where the anode is usually attached internally.

A3.
Fogstar wholesale if spend is over £75 other wise one is re-directed to the retail site where prices are 2.5x higher.
 
Last edited:

carlbikekits

Pedelecer
Apr 5, 2022
43
3
Great instructables.

Where is the charging cable? Would you not have a charging cable from the BMS?

Thanks
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
20,917
8,533
61
West Sx RH
BMS is same port so charge & discharge is via the xt 60.
Since this build I have had issues with DALY BMS's failing on my bottle battery so have decided to look elsewhere for future BMS , thus far though this BMS has been ok.
 

carlbikekits

Pedelecer
Apr 5, 2022
43
3
BMS is same port so charge & discharge is via the xt 60.
So I sourced a Daly as I wanted the waterproofing and now realise it is common port. Regarding the charge, what connection are you using to go from XT60 to a common charger?
I am using XT90 but can only find this with a male charging connector. I would have thought that it would need to be a female connection and a common charger plugs the male connector into a female port which is wired to the XT60/90?

Thank you
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
20,917
8,533
61
West Sx RH
Solder up a short 7cm - 10cm charge adapter XT one end an a 5.5mm x 2.1mm vdc jack on the other end (assuming one is talking 5.5mm charge jack).

In #1 you can see my adapter sitting across the BMS in the third pic, it has male xt60 and male dc 5.5 x 2.1.

One can buy M/F XT's as with any other connectors.
For the charger DC , I use the screw type speaker type fitting. It handles 2a @ 44v ok and doesn't get very warm.
 
Last edited:

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
20,917
8,533
61
West Sx RH
All battery discharge should be female side to prevent accidental shorts.
Battery charge ports use male with a female on the charger connection.

If your battery has male XT90 then change it for a female, which means you will also have to change the controller one as well.
 
Last edited:

carlbikekits

Pedelecer
Apr 5, 2022
43
3
Ah, yes I see now.

Final question if I may. On/off switch. Do you rely on the lcd for power on/off? What would safety protocol say?

Thank you for your patient insight.
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
20,917
8,533
61
West Sx RH
I use the display switch , though ususlly opt if I can for BMS with switch.
 

AntonyC

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 5, 2022
332
144
Surrey
Having bought the Moli P42's, I have quickly built the battery up ready for use.
Being only 12s2p the battery is just shy of 370wh at 8.4ah, but can easily do more then 40a continuously.
Neat. How long did building it take? Which controllers work well with 12s without the cutoff voltages interfering?
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
20,917
8,533
61
West Sx RH
I usually build over a couple of days as i have other chores to carry out as well.

The battery is used witha tsdz2 and a KT, with the KT though if one goes by the charge bars then the first one drops out quickly . I always use the voltage readout and ignore any charge bars.

The TSDZ2 has cut out a coupe of times when down to the last couple of bars showing so I have played with the OSF and adjusted lvc .
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
20,917
8,533
61
West Sx RH

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
20,917
8,533
61
West Sx RH
I build my own packs so no bullets, I preinstall an xt60 with tails to solder to the busses.
In your case yes snip off one bullet and solder to the XT and the do the other one, remember to slide the insulating shroud up the wire first.
 

Advertisers