20mph speed limit -applies to bikes ?

[flecc]

I'm firmly against Scotland leaving the UK, even if it still chooses to have Lizzie as monarch - big deal that is.
If I were still there, I'd be voting against it and I'll tell you why...
The SNP are a shower of no-hopers, losers and typical slimy political tosspots who weren't good enough to cut it on a larger stage so they see this as their chance to be a big fish in a small pond.
To this end, they know they're on a possible winner if they stir up all the old hatreds and negativities about the Auld Enemy. You've no idea how much I despise politicians, but the SNP have a special place in my cupboard of despicion.
That's it - nothing's changed over the past four or five decades - they're still the same creatures.

Could it be you are an orangeman Scimitar?

 

[Scimitar]

Could it be you are an orangeman Scimitar?

No need for gratuitous insults like that.

 

[Old_Dave]

Tum de dar te tum.... = me humming a happy little tune whilst slowly edging towards the exit

 

[Steve Hall]

This makes for interesting reading
Cycling and the law - Bikehub - http://www.bikehub.co.uk

Confusing or what !!!

Almost as bad as which ebikes are legal

Here is the section on speeding

SPEED LIMITS DO NOT APPLY TO CYCLISTS

Possessing and propelling a vehicle equipped with an engine confers more responsibilities in law but not any greater rights. Many commenters to newspapers and online forums complain that cyclists travel too slowly and impede the progress of motorists. These commenters may be surprised to learn that cyclists share no legal obligation to adhere to speed limits. Speed limits on motor vehicles were introduced in 1903 in order to protect members of the public from the harm that can be done by excessive speed made possible by engines. The speed limit in 1903 was set at 20mph; this limit was routinely breached by early motorists. In 1934 the speed limit in towns was set at 30mph.

Not then and not since have any laws been enacted to make cyclists adhere to the speeding regulations brought in for motorised vehicles.

Rule 124 of the currently in force Highway Code states speed limits on a tabulated panel, but there is no row that applies to bicycles.

The Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 states:

“It shall not be lawful for a person to drive a motor vehicle on a restricted road at a speed exceeding 30 miles per hour.” (RTRA 81.1)

And

“A person who drives a motor vehicle on a road at a speed exceeding a limit imposed by or under any enactment to which this section applies shall be guilty of an offence.” (RTRA 89.1)

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 allows for speed limits to be imposed by local acts, but has never been used to impose speed limits on cyclists.

The speed limits in Royal Parks are also intended for motor vehicles only. According to The Royal Parks and Other Open Spaces (Amendment) etc. Regulations 2010 “vehicle” means a mechanically propelled vehicle intended or adapted for use on a road.

While, technically, cyclists do not have to adhere to speed limits, in practice it is most sensible and safe to do so. Cyclists who breach the speed limit may not be prosecuted for a speeding offence but, as stated above, can be prosecuted for “cycling furiously” or “wanton and furious driving.”

I am not in any way knocking your research efforts here, although in this case we are only concerned with the Road Traffic Act and when you read any Act of Parliament, you must begin by reading the definitions at the start of the Act. To the best of my knowledge, without checking, correct me anyone if I am wrong. A vehicle means; any vehicle that is motor propelled. So I would say without doubt, that an electric bike is motor propelled and would be required to adhere to local speed limits. I would also say, that a grey area exists if a person had a CBT ‘compulsory bike test’ with a certificate of proof or a full motorbike licence and were riding with an oversized motor on their electric bike, had insurance to cover for accident to third parties and a warranty to show the bike is roadworthy. Providing they have not committed any road traffic offences I doubt a high Court in England and Wales would permit a prosecution for an oversized motor that did a speed less than 50mph. Problem here though, to get to the Crown Court you need to jump through some hoops and with a Police Prosecution its local magistrates first and they go by the letter of the law, so an oversized motor would in their opinion fall into a prosecution category of a fine not exceeding level 5. To have a chance of a win, the recipient of the fine would have to appeal the fine to be heard at Crown Court before a Senior Judge and Jury. That way, common sense may prevail and depending on the Defence put forward, if I was on the Jury I would say, Not Guilty. Why….because in my opinion if a person is competent to ride a big motor vehicle, be it electric or fuel driven, and they have a licence to do so, then they are qualified.
Another way of getting this before the Courts might be….If you have a bigger motor and someone crashes into you in a motor propelled vehicle, like for example a car. If you have that bike licence, insurance etc like I have explained, then try convincing your Solicitor to test this in Court. If you are claiming personal injuries it will not be listed in Crown Court, it will be Civil County Court and the Civil Appeal Court is capable of setting legal precedents for all other Courts to follow. They cannot however ulta vires an Act Parliament, so if it’s an Act of Parliament that made the law that requires the motor not to exceed 250watt and a max speed of 15.5mph then you would not win.
Of course, until this is tested in the Law Courts the best way to deal with this problem is to stay legal, do the required speed limit and don’t bother with oversized motors.

 

[flecc]

A vehicle means; any vehicle that is motor propelled. So I would say without doubt, that an electric bike is motor propelled and would be required to adhere to local speed limits.

This could well be true if e-bikes are in any way specified as motor propelled Steve. However, that is not the case in two ways:

Firstly, under the type approval regulations 2002/24/EC, adopted into UK law on 10th November 2003, conforming e-bikes are exempted from motor vehicle controls and are to be considered as bicycles in law.

Secondly, the laws relating to e-bikes and pedelecs expressly refer to them as assisted, not motor propelled, so they do not strictly conform as motor propelled. Indeed, UK law refers to them as EAPCs (electrically assisted pedal cycles), so primarily pedal cycles only assisted electrically, with no mention of electrically propelled, motor propelled or even motor powered.

I suppose the electrical assistance could even take the form of sharp shocks to the riders derriere to encourage them to get out of the saddle and pedal harder!
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[wissy]

The irony is that the unionists in so-called NI really really want a bit of what they call 'British' empire spice then my Sottish cousins hopefully want some Mel Gibson Freedom and us Welsh (not the holiday home brigade) can only look on with envy in the hope (envy and hope don't often mix) they do succeed. I can only dream. Oh .. Back to irony.. That over-used word a bit akin to 'ironically' or 'literally' and be grateful you apostrophe debaters's'' that you do not have the aversion to inaccurate mutation and hark be grateful to new technologies' advances that allow your language to be so easily spellchecked . (Hicough even) IF ONLY.. IF only.... IF only they would allow the English to VOTE on independence. The irony. The apostrophe. It is a malaise. The irony. (Sorry was that Francais?). A bit like the reversal of general elections and Londinium syndrome. Eg England vote for Conservative government and we're limbered but didna choose her (silly cow).

I just wish I was free..... Then again just had loads of the Anglesey 'Mafia' councillors' brochures (printed in London!!!!) arrive last couple of days. We were not allowed to vote (good old democracy eh) last time because of the feudal infighting of the local geriatric inbreds. i have decided now to vote for anybody under 40 years of age or not at all. Blydi so-called independents. Grrrr.

Anyhow down with the Pedelec Tax!!!

Ps have we a Pedelec Union or flag yet??!

 

[Steve Hall]

This could well be true if e-bikes are in any way specified as motor propelled Steve. However, that is not the case in two ways:

Firstly, under the type approval regulations 2002/24/EC, adopted into UK law on 10th November 2003, conforming e-bikes are exempted from motor vehicle controls and are to be considered as bicycles in law.

Secondly, the laws relating to e-bikes and pedelecs expressly refer to them as assisted, not motor propelled, so they do not strictly conform as motor propelled. Indeed, UK law refers to them as EAPCs (electrically assisted pedal cycles), so primarily pedal cycles only assisted electrically, with no mention of electrically propelled, motor propelled or even motor powered.

I suppose the electrical assistance could even take the form of sharp shocks to the riders derriere to encourage them to get out of the saddle and pedal harder!
.

This is an excellent post, although further clarification required, what about the size of the motor, if its above 250 watt say 500watt and pedal assist then is it exempt from motor vehicle controls? How have they clarified this point in Law?

 

[flecc]

This is an excellent post, although further clarification required, what about the size of the motor, if its above 250 watt say 500watt and pedal assist then is it exempt from motor vehicle controls? How have they clarified this point in Law?

Over 250 watts is definitely not exempt. The UK's EAPC regulations specify a 200 watt limit for assisted pedal cycles which is at variance with the EU vehicle type approval exemption. This is intended to be changed when the EAPC regulations are redrafted, and meanwhile the DfT has notified the following:

"The DfT and Police are aware that electric bikes currently sold and used in the UK are fitted with 250W motors, they do not intend to become involved in prosecuting those that sell or ride them. The use of an "Off Road Button" however is strictly forbidden now and is specifically mentioned in documents appertaining to new and existing guidelines."

The forthcoming changes in the UK EAPC regulations will incorporate the standard EU provisions for pedelecs, but meanwhile we have only the motor vehicle type approval exemption to refer to in an EU context. Here is the extract from item 1 (exemptions), subsection 1h:

"This Directive does not apply to the following vehicles:

(h) cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0,25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling."

Therefore 250 watt conforming e-bikes are not considered as motor vehicles in either legislation. Otherwise, anything with over 250 watts is definitely illegal as an e-bike in both legislations and therefore becomes a motor vehicle, and the UK's EAPC regulations actually say as much regarding anything equipped with over the legal power. Also the DfT statement that "off-road" buttons are definitely not permitted, without reference to what that means technically, could be read by a court as meaning that a switched dual power motor is illegal, despite the fact that we informally interpret the term "off road button" as meaning switching that permits more speed than the 15.6 mph limit, rather than power switching.
.

 

[Steve Hall]

Thank you Flecc, very helpful for me and no doubt many other readers. This thread appears to be about the 20mph speed limit, without reading the whole thread, what was the final outcome?. If its not a motor propelled vehicle, which thanks to your valuable input I now know it isn't, did the law clarify the speed restrictions in 2003 or have they yet to do this?

 

[flecc]

The UK's EAPC regulation specifies the assist speed limit as do the EU regulations. THe UK's assist limit was at one time 12 mph, but this was upgraded to 15 mph in 1988 in order to harmonise with the EU's 25 kph. More recently our legal references to this are to 15.6 mph, a more accurate conversion, but academic since the DfT has specified that the usual 10% tolerance applies. This means in effect that an assist speed of up to about 17 mph will escape prosecution.

Neither e-bike legislation makes any reference to road speed limits, not surprising in the UK since our road speed limits are part of motor vehicle legislation and e-bikes are specifically not motor vehicles. There are existing laws such as that referring to "furious riding" which can be applied to bicycles to take care of any silly speed in dangerous circumstances. No points applicable with such old law though, so no threat to anyone's driving licences.

But of course if an e-bike has over 250 watts rating, it's a motor vehicle so all the speed limits with point and other penalties will apply.
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[Steve Hall]

I read on here that some people have a motor on the front and rear wheel. My initial thought was they must be illegal. Although if both motors are 250 watt and both are governed to 15.5 mph then the only purpose would be to provide additional muscle on the steepest hills and obviously running two motors would place less strain on one single motor. In any event it wouldn’t really matter if both motors ran at the same time because the maximum speed is only 15,5 combined or singular and the bike will not go any faster. Would this comply with the law? Or is this a grey area?

 

[Steve Hall]

The UK's EAPC regulation specifies the assist speed limit as do the EU regulations. THe UK's assist limit was at one time 12 mph, but this was upgraded to 15 mph in 1988 in order to harmonise with the EU's 25 kph. More recently our legal references to this are to 15.6 mph, a more accurate conversion, but academic since the DfT has specified that the usual 10% tolerance applies. This means in effect that an assist speed of up to about 17 mph will escape prosecution.

Neither e-bike legislation makes any reference to road speed limits, not surprising in the UK since our road speed limits are part of motor vehicle legislation and e-bikes are specifically not motor vehicles. There are existing laws such as that referring to "furious riding" which can be applied to bicycles to take care of any silly speed in dangerous circumstances. No points applicable with such old law though, so no threat to anyone's driving licences.

But of course if an e-bike has over 250 watts rating, it's a motor vehicle so all the speed limits with point and other penalties will apply.
.

I read on here that some people have a motor on the front and rear wheel. My initial thought was they must be illegal. Although if both motors are 250 watt and both are governed to 15.5 mph then the only purpose is it to provide additional muscle on the steepest hills and running two motors would put less strain on one single motor. In any event it wouldn’t really matter if both motors ran at the same time because the maximum speed is only 15,5 combined or singular. Would this comply with the law? Or is this a grey area?

 

[flecc]

Not a grey area Steve. Here is an extract from the UK's EAPC regulations:

(b)be fitted with pedals by means of which it is capable of being propelled; and

(c)be fitted with no motor other than an electric motor which—

(i)has a continuous rated output which, when installed in the vehicle with the nominal voltage supplied, does not exceed—

(A)in the case of a bicycle, other than a tandem bicycle, 0.2* kilowatts,

(B)in the case of a tandem bicycle and a tricycle, 0.25 kilowatts; and

(ii)cannot propel the vehicle when it is travelling at more than 15 miles per hour.

Since (c) above refers to "no motor other than an electric motor", that is clearly singular, so two separate motors are not permitted.

N.B. In (A) above: *Now 250 watts as covered before.

 

[Steve Hall]

Not a grey area Steve. Here is an extract from the UK's EAPC regulations:

(b)be fitted with pedals by means of which it is capable of being propelled; and

(c)be fitted with no motor other than an electric motor which—

(i)has a continuous rated output which, when installed in the vehicle with the nominal voltage supplied, does not exceed—

(A)in the case of a bicycle, other than a tandem bicycle, 0.2* kilowatts,

(B)in the case of a tandem bicycle and a tricycle, 0.25 kilowatts; and

(ii)cannot propel the vehicle when it is travelling at more than 15 miles per hour.

Since (c) above refers to "no motor other than an electric motor", that is clearly singular, so two separate motors are not permitted.

N.B. In (A) above: *Now 250 watts as covered before.

You have taken time out to clearly answer all my questions.

Thank you

Kind Regards

Steve

 

[Steve Hall]

I cannot find on the net the date when the EAP regulations gained Royal Assent. It's not law until it does, does anyone know the date of Royal Assent? The Dft can only provide guidlines, they do not make laws and cannot enforce a law that does not exist or is due to become law. Only when Royal Assent is granted will it become enforceable.

 

[Gh0stxSinghx]

The Trike, 20 inch 36V 250W rear hub motor bike conversion kit and throttle with max speed 21mph but will on ride speed 18mph think off road, 12.9 mph is slow. When i go throttle 15.5mph on legal road fine?

21mph (full speed,No load) and 12.9mph (limited speed,No load) is button ON/OFF switches

when policies say allow the e-bike kit legal law uk. and cycle lane, route.
where can any applications/register/certificate etc papers with this e-bike kit legal law for me? no need any licence, tax or mot.