1st Bafang conversion -sense check

[Raboa]

Hi, I had to fit this to my downtube as the bottle bolts on the frame were not in the centre of the frame

Wolf Tooth Components B-RAD Mounting Base - 3 Slot | Sigma Sports

Shop the Wolf Tooth Components B-RAD Mounting Base - 3 Slot online at Sigma Sports. Receive FREE UK delivery on all orders over £60 and easy returns!

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I would also recommend buying from velcro straps to hold the battery onto the downtube. If doing this out some helicopter tape on the underside of the downtube to stop scratching the paint, buy 3M stuff, a lot of other stuff is poor quality.
If you have crud catcher bolts on the underside of the downtube put the straps in-between the frame and crud catcher. The crud catcher helps keep the straps and battery clean from road under spray.
Hope this helps.

 

[polygon]

Cheers, I'll running full guards so spray shouldn't be a problem. From memory I think I can get an oversized bottle cage on the seat tube plus a ticket one on the down tube so hopefully that means the mounts are reasonably high on the DT.

 

[polygon]

Is the 48V BBS01ET controller programmable or locked? The 36V version isn't. At least one BBS02 controller has been reported to be locked on this forum (IIRC @peter.c's), to some extent, for controller current limit at least, also a BBSHD (IIRC @soundwave's mate's). A locked BBSXXX controller would be disappointing for the OP's use case.

Just to be clear I'll be keeping this UK compliant. The programming cable was an after thought in case I wasn't to tweak other settings.

 

[thelarkbox]

Just to be clear I'll be keeping this UK compliant. The programming cable was an after thought in case I wasn't to tweak other settings.

Wanting to 'own' stuff you buy needs no qualification ..

 

[guerney]

Just to be clear I'll be keeping this UK compliant. The programming cable was an after thought in case I wasn't to tweak other settings.

There are other conversion kits you can use, for your stated uses.

BBS01B kit sellers might not honour the guarantee if you fiddle about with the firmware, but IIRC Red Dragon bikes don't seem to mind.

Best read this thread re: legalities:

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/pedelec-law-the-details.37594/

...if it takes too long, learn this first

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Speed-Reading-Book-revolutionary-comprehension/dp/1406610216

...then read what the firmware settings do:

https://edrivenet.com/bafang-programming/

...and take a look at my firmware parameter settings.








I haven't installed a throttle and there's nothing illegal, yet my particular 20" wheeled folding bike conversion is extremely easy to pedal about all over the place. I'm not fat.

If you do buy a 36V BBS01B kit, there are several BBSXXX owners on this forum - I suggest you try your conversion, and post a question should you encounter a niggle.

 

[polygon]

Now leaning towards the tsdz8 from Woosh, but having trouble working out whether it will fit my frame. Are there any sure fire methods to work out whether fitting will work prior to ordering, or if I'll have a horrible chainline? The bike is 68mm bb. Just over 100mm wide at 100mm out from the BB centre with a small dimple in the drive side stay. I'm most concerned about the gearbox clearance as I can always go smaller on the chainring, though that might involve adapters and such.

 

[jimriley]

I run a 36v bs01b, I fitted a 42t front cog to cope with the steep hills on bridleways around me, there have been no issues with any hills on roads, even pulling my trailer. The kit came with a 46t cog IMMSMR. I tweaked things like the Keep Current and current control settings for a better ride, using the windows program initially, but lately the Android Speeed App on phone. If course this means you can also change ah and top speed settings when you reach the boundary of your country estate.

Sometimes running at 18ah / 350w rather than 15ah / 250w can be a help with a heavy load. It would be hard to check too, unlike top speed which can be tested at the roadside by lifting back wheel and running the motor or by following the speeding bike.

 

[polygon]

Looking closer at the BBS01B drawings in pretty sure it won't fit, can't find the gearbox diameter for the tsdz8 or tsdz2 but I imagine it's probably similar.

My chainstays flare out quite a lot near the BB.

So probably looking at a hub motor or no conversion at all.

 

[polygon]

I was very close to pulling the trigger on the Woosh BBTS/DWG22C kit but I'm getting myself tied in knots in regards to gear ratios and chainline. I understand chainline isn't so critical on an assisted bike, but I'm struggling to understand how some of these numbers are workable.

Currently waiting on some answers from Woosh, here's what I don't know:

• Whether I can use the BBTS with my current cranks (Middleburn R01 W/ RX7 Narrow Wide 32t chainring). They said I could in an email but I saw someone from Woosh say that it wasn't possible using 3rd part cranks with the BBTS on another thread here.

• What Chainline is achieved using the stock cracks with the BBTS

They've told me that the spindle on the BBts is 144mm, currently I get 50mm chainline with the Middleburns on a 113mm BB, so looking at c.65mm using the BBTS which just sounds crazy. Will have to wait and see what they say the stock cranks chainline is. At 50mm my biggest sprocket is a touch noisy but perfectly usable, at 65mm I don't imagine the lowest few gears will be usable, which may not be a problem as I understand grinding up 20% inclines is not great for a hub gear anyway.


I built the drivetrain with gravel/mountain biking in mind: 32t chainring and 11-42 10 speed cassette. Now I'm planning to use the bike for commuting and child transport. It'll be roughly 10miles 4 days a week with an elevation gain on the way home with gradients between 1 and 5%. My best guess is that with assist the gearing will generally be too low, though the Sheldon brown calculator says in top gear I'll be hitting 20mph @80rpn so I guess I'll not be outrun by the motor. Worst case I won't be using the low gears at all.


The other limiting factor is my chainstays clearance. They flare out steeply from the BB above roughly 34t I'm going to have to bring the chainline out beyond 50mm anyway. Something like a 48t would probably have to be 55mm or more to completely clear the chainstays as this will be beyond the diameter of the indent in the chainstay.

In this way the 144mm spindle of the BBTS might not be so bad. If I can use the Middleburns and I did want to bring the chainline back in a bit they do an offset spider designed for use on their external BB cranks. Can't find exact details but I think it's offset about 8mm inboard as , probably bringing be too about 55mm. If I get the double 130bcd spider this gives a bit more leeway either side.

This is all just speculation. I just need to get on and order the kit really and see how it works out then make adjustments to suit. Just writing this out for my own purposes more than anything.

 

[Saracen]

So I'm thinking of just buying all the kit for the conversion of my Genesis Vagabond soon. An upcoming commuting increase to 5 miles each way with nursery drop one way and some elevation gain the other means I'll probably need some help if I'm too avoid feeling knackered by the weekend.

So far my shopping list is as below:

• Bafang Bbs01b - probably from eBay Germany (I'm in the UK) can't see that it's loads cheaper from AliExpress, looking at about £315 for basis kit same battery.
• Greenlance 48v 13ah battery - will this play well with the 36V motor? £205 w/discount
• Hydro brake sensors - included in above kit
• SW102 display - included in above kit
• Gear shift sensor
• Programming cable
• Lockring tool so I can use my torque wrench
• Loctite 222
• Zip ties

I'm hoping I might be able to use my Middleburn cranks but I think the taper is quite short on the bafang.

Anything in missing, or hot tips on better places to buy? My budget is a little flexible but I've a few other bits to get like new tyres and bars so definitely as low as possible without regretting it later.

My TWO conversions from reputable seller

Cogs Y Gogs google them

 

[saneagle]

I was very close to pulling the trigger on the Woosh BBTS/DWG22C kit but I'm getting myself tied in knots in regards to gear ratios and chainline. I understand chainline isn't so critical on an assisted bike, but I'm struggling to understand how some of these numbers are workable.

Currently waiting on some answers from Woosh, here's what I don't know:

• Whether I can use the BBTS with my current cranks (Middleburn R01 W/ RX7 Narrow Wide 32t chainring). They said I could in an email but I saw someone from Woosh say that it wasn't possible using 3rd part cranks with the BBTS on another thread here.

• What Chainline is achieved using the stock cracks with the BBTS

They've told me that the spindle on the BBts is 144mm, currently I get 50mm chainline with the Middleburns on a 113mm BB, so looking at c.65mm using the BBTS which just sounds crazy. Will have to wait and see what they say the stock cranks chainline is. At 50mm my biggest sprocket is a touch noisy but perfectly usable, at 65mm I don't imagine the lowest few gears will be usable, which may not be a problem as I understand grinding up 20% inclines is not great for a hub gear anyway.


I built the drivetrain with gravel/mountain biking in mind: 32t chainring and 11-42 10 speed cassette. Now I'm planning to use the bike for commuting and child transport. It'll be roughly 10miles 4 days a week with an elevation gain on the way home with gradients between 1 and 5%. My best guess is that with assist the gearing will generally be too low, though the Sheldon brown calculator says in top gear I'll be hitting 20mph @80rpn so I guess I'll not be outrun by the motor. Worst case I won't be using the low gears at all.


The other limiting factor is my chainstays clearance. They flare out steeply from the BB above roughly 34t I'm going to have to bring the chainline out beyond 50mm anyway. Something like a 48t would probably have to be 55mm or more to completely clear the chainstays as this will be beyond the diameter of the indent in the chainstay.

In this way the 144mm spindle of the BBTS might not be so bad. If I can use the Middleburns and I did want to bring the chainline back in a bit they do an offset spider designed for use on their external BB cranks. Can't find exact details but I think it's offset about 8mm inboard as , probably bringing be too about 55mm. If I get the double 130bcd spider this gives a bit more leeway either side.

This is all just speculation. I just need to get on and order the kit really and see how it works out then make adjustments to suit. Just writing this out for my own purposes more than anything.

As an experienced commuter, I'd say you need minimum 42/11T, but better is 48/11 for sustaining 15 mph. Your gearing will be too low. IMHO, you're over-specifying everything. For commuting you need a robust bike with robust electrics. The motor will cover all its deficiencies compared with your present unassisted bike.

A torque sensor wouldn't be my choice either. They're great for off-road riding, but A liability for commuting.

 

[polygon]

As an experienced commuter, I'd say you need minimum 42/11T,

On what wheel size are we talking?


Not sure what you mean by over-specifying, I'm mainly just trying to not buy new components.

Fair point about going without the TS though, I keep forgetting that's an option!

 

[saneagle]

On what wheel size are we talking?


Not sure what you mean by over-specifying, I'm mainly just trying to not buy new components.

Fair point about going without the TS though, I keep forgetting that's an option!

Good point. That's 26" wheels, so 38T would be a comfortable minimum for 29" .

What I'm saying is that it would probably be better to get a cheap used catalogue bike with disc brakes to convert. Unless there's something special about you and your rides, it'll work fine with any cheap conversion kit. Once you understand how it all works, you'll be able to see whether you need to improve it for whatever you want to do with it. You can always swap the parts to other bikes later if you don't like it.

My starting position would always be to get a KT controller because they're miles ahead when it comes to the way the pedal assist works, then I'd get a battery from greenace and whatever motor I needed to do the job.

Different motors have different speeds, which is the most important characteristic. The power is determined by the controller, not the motor, so a 1000w motor won't make more power than a 180w one if the controller gives them both 36v and 12 amps. In fact, it'll probably make a lot less.

When getting a hub-motor kit, whatever motor or kit you get, you need to know what speed the motor has. A typical off the shelf kit for UK, would typically have a max speed of 260 rpm for big wheels and around 320 rpm for small ones, though some sellers do have a range of speeds. You should choose a motor that has a max rpm about 1.3 times your expected modal riding speed. The ideal motor for a 15 mph 29" wheel would be around 220 - 230rpm, but they're not common in off-the-shelf kits. If motors run too slow, they have low efficiency, which is one of the downsides of using a normal speed motor in a 29" wheel. Also, the torque would be proportionally lower in a 29" wheel, and it's torque you need to get up hills.

Whatever you want or need, 15.5 mph in a 26" wheel is 201 rpm.. You can use that basis to calculate the rpm you need, like for a modal speed of 20 mph in a 29" wheel, it would be 201 x 20/15.5 X 26/29 = 232 rpm,and you need a motor that maxes out at 1.3 times that = 302 rpm.

Any motor will run 1.3 times faster at 48v compared with 36v. That gives you a chance to adjust a motor's speed up or down 30%. Motors don't care about voltage. It's not bad to run a 36v one at 48v. It's current that does the damage, and you use less at 48v for the same power.

Crank motors don't care about speed because you change that with your gears. Instead, you choose a Crank motor that has a max rpm 1.3 times your pedal speed, otherwise it can be uncomfortable or inefficient. Unfortunately, they're not so suitable for commuting, though many people do use them and are happy in their blissful ignorance. The differences aren't massive., but it's like when your boss says you can choose how much to get paid - either £10 per hour or £11 per hour. Why would anybody choose £10?

 

[Woosh]

My starting position would always be to get a KT controller because they're miles ahead when it comes to the way the pedal assist works, then I'd get a battery from greenace and whatever motor I needed to do the job.

I am always a little irritated whenever someone says 'KT controller is miles ahead' or some such statements.
I have bought KT controllers for testing and as far as I can see, Lishui controllers are a more sensible choice. I will of course justify why not just me, but the majority of OEMs buy Lishui controllers for their bikes.

I would like to see videos demonstrating how KT controllers are better than Lishui's. Here is how a speed controlled Lishui in use. If someone prefers current control, I can change the firmware.

You can see and hear how quickly the controller reacts to the lack of load when you change the assist level.

 

[Nealh]

Lishui are in the main part only an OEM supplier so it isn't surprising that KT we mention them, I have to say I much prefer my KT to the Lishui I have used in the past.

 

[saneagle]

I am always a little irritated whenever someone says 'KT controller is miles ahead' or some such statements.
I have bought KT controllers for testing and as far as I can see, Lishui controllers are a more sensible choice. I will of course justify why not just me, but the majority of OEMs buy Lishui controllers for their bikes.

I would like to see videos demonstrating how KT controllers are better than Lishui's. Here is how a speed controlled Lishui in use. If someone prefers current control, I can change the firmware.

You can see and hear how quickly the controller reacts to the lack of load when you change the assist level.

You see the difference when you ride the bike. Riding once won't show you much, but when you ride every day, you get it.

 

[Woosh]

You see the difference when you ride the bike. Riding once won't show you much, but when you ride every day, you get it.

Are you using their current control controller?

I rode the Q188H that I bought from bmsbattery for about a month.
Q128H 36V800W Rear Driving EBike Hub Motor RPM 201 Voltage 48V (bmsbattery.com)
It came with KT 20A 6-FET speed controller and KT LCD3.
At the end of the trial, I decided to buy the Bafang SWX02 48V and Lishui 48V controller instead. I have never regretted that decision. If anyone wants to buy that Q128H kit, make me an offer.
I can see the attraction of seeing '800W' on the KT LCD3, being able to switch between 36V and 48V, to have access to C1, C2, C3, C4, C5, P1 to P14 in the KT advanced settings menu.
But is it necessary or better? If it is, then could you explain to me why?
You can see for example on my video how quickly the STM32 chip on the Lishui adjusted down the output power when Andy increased assist level. Would your KT react faster?

 

[saneagle]

Are you using their current control controller?

I rode the Q188H that I bought from bmsbattery for about a month.
Q128H 36V800W Rear Driving EBike Hub Motor RPM 201 Voltage 48V (bmsbattery.com)
It came with KT 20A 6-FET speed controller and KT LCD3.
At the end of the trial, I decided to buy the Bafang SWX02 48V and Lishui 48V controller instead. I have never regretted that decision. If anyone wants to buy that Q128H kit, make me an offer.
I can see the attraction of seeing '800W' on the KT LCD3, being able to switch between 36V and 48V, to have access to C1, C2, C3, C4, C5, P1 to P14 in the KT advanced settings menu.
But is it necessary or better? If it is, then could you explain to me why?
You can see for example on my video how quickly the STM32 chip on the Lishui adjusted down the output power when Andy increased assist level. Would your KT react faster?

I've never seen a KT controller that didn't have current control. They are dual mode and there's a setting to choose which you want, though they're normally set to current control ("torque simulation") by default, but not always.

I've said it so many times on this forum that I'm surprised you haven't got it, and I've been saying it for years, but you don't listen. Current control allows you to select the power you want so that you can choose how hard or easy you want to pedal at any time, and if you need a temporary boost of power, you just press the throttle that gives it instantly, and the boost stops instantly after letting go the throttle. There are so many advantages to that system that you see when you figure it all out.

 

[Woosh]

I've never seen a KT controller that didn't have current control.

At the time I bought the Q128H kit, the KT was just speed controller.
Their torque simulation was sold as a separate proiduct with an 'S' suffix.
Note:
The word 'speed control' is not used by Lishui. They just say their controller is programmed with their algorithm that they have refined with years of experience. I don't like the normal programming be called 'speed control' but I use it here for the sake of discussion,
The Lishui 'speed' controller does not control your speed as you can see on the video I posted above. Its power algorithm adapts power output to maintain your speed. If you increase the assist level, the controller increases immediately the motor's output to reduce your effort the maintain the speed, you can hear the 'whoosh' push when Andy pressed the + button. The push drops practically immediately because Andy does not need to rotate the cranks very hard, the controller kills the 'whoosh' asap. It does not need to increase the current much to reduce Andy's effort. It's how fast the controller adjusts the power that determines how good it is. The Lishui controller has about the best chip for the job, STM32.
Lishui offers also current control firmware. Basically, the current is multiplied by the assist level. When you press on the + button, there is no 'whoosh' push, you just the feel an increased assistance. I can load Lishui current control firmware for those who want it.

 

[throwawaychap]

I have two Greenlance batteries. Other forum members have bought them too. No problems reported so far. According to the spec, the cells are top quality. The batteries are CE marked from a UK supplier. Delivery is lightning fast. The guys at Greenlance are very accommodating and helpful. What more could you ask for?

I have been using my 20ah 36v battery from Greenlance for about a month and I must say I have been really really impressed with the range I get from it. I have not yet drained my battery completely but I calculate I can get 50 to 53 miles out of it - riding my 350w rear Yose kit on level 5 (while pedalling).

The charger looks and feels really high quality, I am always checking both the battery and the charger and they never seem to get lukewarm, let alone hot - while charging or after riding my bike.

Granted this is my first e-bike, and I reiterate I've only had it for a month.

2 year warranty, reported Samsung cells, UK company (distributor I suppose), but it feels like a quality product - and at £299 and I don't think it was cheap at all. But I wanted to be safe.