11000 watts/60 mph bike on ebay

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
I know flecc has said something similar before, but I think his point was that the openly higher than legal power bikes do more harm to electric bike riders reputation than those that pay lip service to being meeting the legal requirements. If I understood correctly? At least that's the jist I got when I questioned my Cyclamatic's ability to assist to 19mph.
I don't really want to get drawn in to yet another debate on here about the legality of any particular ebike, but suffice to say that the law is a little like pregnancy - you can't be just a little bit illegal any more than you can be a little bit pregnant.

To be legal, an ebike in the UK currently has to have no more than 250 watts at the output shaft of the motor (no exceptions) and not be capable of providing any electrical power assistance above about 15.5 mph. If you are riding an ebike that can exceed either of these limits then it's a moped in the eyes of the law, and no different from the high powered bike that's the topic of this thread. The magnitude of the breach of the law may have some impact on the sentence, but not on whether or not you're convicted. You are no less guilty of committing an offence if you ride a 500W illegal vehicle than if you ride a 2000W illegal vehicle.

This may help explain my "holier than thou" comment that was copied here from ES.

Jeremy
 

NRG

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 6, 2009
2,592
10
UK law is 200w continious power output Jeremy, 250w continious is European law. There is no mention of peak power output so the whole thing is a mess but currently under review.
 

stevebills

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 14, 2010
443
4
I can see there are few law breakers who want to build powerful car chasers like the one on ebay with 11000 watts, and they have nothing in common with pedal assitted ebikers running 200 watts or 250 watts on trikes and tandems as they dont care about the legalities
of the 1983 road traffic act.
 
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Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
UK law is 200w continious power output Jeremy, 250w continious is European law. There is no mention of peak power output so the whole thing is a mess but currently under review.
Agreed, but currently 250W is accepted in the UK as being the upper continuous power limit, following an acceptance that the UK had no choice but to comply with the EU power and speed limits, hence 25kph, around 15.6mph (rather than 15mph as stated in the old EAPC regulations). The UK is still sitting on the fence with regard to implementing the pedelec regulation that applies in the rest of the EU, but because of the free trade regulations had no choice but to accept EU type approved ebikes (with their 250 watt limit) as being legal.

Notwithstanding this, I still defend my position that the majority of UK ebikes, particularly those with hub motors, are illegal, and should, in law, be treated as mopeds, so to have people who ride them being hypocritical about another illegal ebike sticks in my craw.

Jeremy
 

tonio

Pedelecer
Aug 15, 2009
48
0
O.k, this thread has been a bigger drag than trying to pedal a 25kg ebike without assistance! No one on this forum doubts that the bike advertised on ebay is anything but dangerous and illegal and it would be more than irresponsible, in fact morally as well as legally criminal to take it out on the roads. Lance armstrong on steroids couldnt pedal anything like those speeds.
It doesnt do our case any good even mentioning such contraptions on our site. Any suggestions on finalised regulations for ebikes should be forwarded to EAPAC. I know ive sent them my tuppence of ideas and its closer to the cyclamatic/deristricted Wisper specs. This is because i believe in the ebikes potential, but it also needs to be useful. Thats why im in favour of retaining the throttle control.Without pedalling. the Wisper goes along at about 14.5 mph on the flat (at least mine does}. But who would actually want to do that for any length of time, running down the battery and losing all exercise benefits? the power tapering off speed is what i believe should be more flexible, tapering off before 20mph, which is still well below what a fit cyclist could cycle. Anyway thats how i feel and i cant be bothered arguing about it.
Ill admit the Torq 1 is a virtual moped, but a fine machine. Mines in the shed with no battery but it could fly up a hill at about 18.5 mph throttle only so ill leave it decommisioned. In fact its free to a good home as i think its a bit too powerful for what i consider to be an ebike.
If the result on the ebike legislation results in lower end powered bikes and worse again pedelec only machines then i.m.h.o the ebike u.k is a dead duck. end of.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,270
30,654
You're absolutely right Jeremy, and we've previously agreed on the point you make about the lack of necessity for the universally ignored legal power limit. An assist speed limit is all that is necessary for safety, and the removal of power limits would encourage and result in far wider use of e-bikes.

There's obviously almost no hope of that ever coming about though, especially with the influence of EU pedelec law spreading even to those Australian states currently intending to adopt it.
.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,270
30,654
Without pedalling. the Wisper goes along at about 14.5 mph on the flat (at least mine does}. But who would actually want to do that for any length of time, running down the battery end losing all excercise benefits?
This illustrates the vast gulf that exists between our forum enthusiast membership and the mainstream buyers. The largest part if the e-bike market is for utility buyers of budget machines that they tend to use as mopeds. For some years between 2002 and 2007 one of the largest outlets was Thompsons, outselling nearly all the rest in some years. As Thompson himself once said, "Our customers won't pedal!"

When you see most of what they sell you'll understand that these are 12 mph "mopeds" with single speed bike gearing that doesn't allow for pedal assistance at over about 8 mph.
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ELECTRIC AVENUES

Pedelecer
Jan 18, 2010
51
0
A pity that Jeremy doesn't realise that we are well aware of the current status of our e-bikes vis-a-vis power.

The difference is that most of the bikes we use are restricted to legal speed limits or not capable of much more under power alone anyway. Our supposedly holier-than-thou attitudes are comments on the bikes that flagrantly breach the whole gamut of e-bike laws.

Where rational views are concerned, I'd rank the pedelecs forum above Endless Sphere any day.
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Define "rational".
 

CeeGee

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 4, 2009
328
0
Weybridge, UK
Define "rational".
Don't you have use of a dictionary?:

rational adj
1
related to or based on reason or logic.
2 able to think, form opinions, make judgements, etc.
3 sensible; reasonable.
4
sane.

(Courtesy of Chambers on-line dictionary.)

Colin
 

Patrick

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 9, 2009
303
1
There are two distinct concepts that often confused in this area of debate: electric bicycles and Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (EAPC). Both electric bicycles and EAPCs have been refered to as "e-bikes" in this thread. So in an attempt to clarify things I'll put forward a couple of definitions.

Electric bicycles are bicycles with an electric motor as well as a pedals.

Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles are electric bicycles that are so similar to unassisted bicycles in their performance characteristics that the law turns a blind eye to their motor and treats them as if they actually are unassisted bicycles.

So in general electric bikes are subject to the same regulations as motorbikes unless they are EPACs.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,270
30,654
In common with many of us Patrick, I use electric bikes or e-bikes as shorthand to refer to all groups, while being well aware of the differences.

It's not in any way confusion, just being fed up with repeatedly typing the various cumbersome names or using abbreviations which may not always be understood.

In fact you are not entirely correct, since electric assist bikes are not necessarily legal within EAPC regulations but electric bikes can be, and it's EAPCs, not EPACs as you've typed.

The confused naming situation includes e-bikes, also known as EPVs; pedelecs which are also EAPCs but with power only while pedalling, but EAPC including non-pedelec machines with throttles or switched control systems. Of course the proper name for our bikes is "moped", but that was stolen from us long ago for ignorant and inappropriate use elsewhere.

So I'll continue to use the convenience of "e-bikes" to save both my keyboard and my fingers. :p
.
 
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jbond

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 29, 2010
411
2
Ware, Herts
www.voidstar.com
Somewhat conflicted by all of this. Not least because I ride an e-bike that is advertised as illegal and is technically illegal. But here's a huge difference between an Aurora and the kind of thing in the OP or the kind of thing the more extreme people on ES are building.

IMHO anything that does 30mph and upwards without pedalling is the electric equivalent of a 50 or 125 motorcycle and should follow the rules for such things. I do not want to see large numbers of unlicensed, uninsured people riding things like this with no training, no insurance and no protective gear.

At the other end of the scale, it's hard to get worked up about the Aurora. It's a big heavy workmanlike bicycle that can just hit 20mph on the power. It looks like a bicycle, it rides like a bicycle. It's slower than an energetic MTB or road cyclist. Yes, it's technically illegal, but providing you don't blatantly break the law, it's hard to imagine anyone even noticing. I've had cyclists look at it who had to have it pointed out to them that it was electric. However, I don't especially want to see large numbers of stupid people riding round London (say) on bikes that will easily and routinely do 20mph with no training and no protective gear.

So now we get down to that middle ground between a legal assisted 15mph and somewhere around 25 before the motor cuts out. And bearing in mind that it's not hard even on an un-powered bicycle to hit 25-30mph downhill. If we're going to have a legal loophole for untested, untaxed powered bicycles, 15-20mph seems about right to stop the stupid people hurting themselves and others.

Then we get to personal choice. The arguments in this thread seem to reflect two attitudes. One is the one my father had and tried to instill in me. The law is the law and you MUST NOT BREAK IT. If it's wrong, work to get it changed. The other is common among people younger than him (and especially motorcyclists). The law is an ass. Treat it as a guide. Try not to screw up. And take your punishment, not complaining too loudly, if you get caught. It's the one that lets us rationalise short bursts of 130mph on roads with good visibility and surface. Yes, it's wildly illegal, but nobody got hurt, did they. (and before we get into born again bikers killing themselves on country roads, I did say "try not to screw up").

So then there's the problem of commercial companies selling illegal items. Well as motorcyclists we know all about that, and the end result. For years people have been selling us illegal visors, exhausts, mini numberplates and what have you. And we've been buying them and using them on the road. Eventually we suffer as the law stops them being sold and neuters standard machines. This is what makes me a bit uncomfortable with Alien and others selling and advertising the Aurora and Goldenmotor kits. I don't think it will end up with severe limits on the mainstream industry and the destruction of the aftermarket industry but it might. I don't think we'll end up with TUV approval of bikes and e-bikes but we might. Even then it'll probably still be possible to buy a truly off road electric MX bike or to build one yourself from imported parts.

Meanwhile, if you do bicycle things on your slightly illegal E-Bike and don't take the pi55, nobody's even going to notice. Any more than anyone will notice you riding your bicycle on country footpaths. That's illegal too, but we all do it.
 

theskip1

Pedelecer
Mar 4, 2010
159
0
sm6
quote by flecc.
" But Croydon now has a specialist e-bike only dealer and two other bike shops selling e-bikes as well "

sorry to but in on this thread but would like to know where these outlets are please flecc.
 

CeeGee

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 4, 2009
328
0
Weybridge, UK
Somewhat conflicted by all of this. Not least because I ride an e-bike that is advertised as illegal and is technically illegal.
There is no such thing as "technically illegal" or "just a bit illegal". Your bike is illegal - fact.
Stop trying to defend the fact that you are riding an illegal bike and that everything is OK, because ignorance is no defence in law.

Colin
 

stevebills

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 14, 2010
443
4
There is no such thing as "technically illegal" or "just a bit illegal". Your bike is illegal - fact.
Stop trying to defend the fact that you are riding an illegal bike and that everything is OK, because ignorance is no defence in law.

Colin
Flashing Lights fitted to bikes are technically illegal ?

Is reverse parking on a one-way street technically illegal?:D
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,270
30,654
quote by flecc.
" But Croydon now has a specialist e-bike only dealer and two other bike shops selling e-bikes as well "

sorry to but in on this thread but would like to know where these outlets are please flecc.
Lloyd informed me about the e-bike outlet, but I see it's actually in nearby Coulsdon:

CyclingMadeEasy

The bike shops that also sell e-bikes are CycleKing who are Powabyke agents:

Managed by Paul & Danny 26-40 Brighton Rd, South Croydon, CR2 6AA 0208 649 9002
croydon@cycleking.co.uk


And BikePlus who are Giant agents and who've sold electric since the Lafree Twist series:

managed by Paul Smith
429 Brighton Rd
South Croydon CR2 6EU
020 8763 1988

I bought my Lafree from BikePlus 8 years ago.

And now there's yet another e-bike outlet I'd forgotten to count, Evans Cycles at West Croydon, since they are agents for the new Trek Electric bikes using the BionX motors.

So four local outlets in all now.
.
 
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CeeGee

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 4, 2009
328
0
Weybridge, UK
Flashing Lights fitted to bikes are technically illegal ?

Is reverse parking on a one-way street technically illegal?:D
Just what bit of "There is no such thing as "technically illegal"" is it that you don't understand?

Colin
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,252
3,197
Just what bit of "There is no such thing as "technically illegal"" is it that you don't understand?

Colin

I think forum member Jeremy summed it up nicely with this phrase:

the law is a little like pregnancy - you can't be just a little bit illegal any more than you can be a little bit pregnant.
Of course, some of our friends on here are going to come back now and say, "what has pregnancy got to do with electric bikes." :(