1-1-2016 Today's Change in the Law.

[Kudoscycles]

Yes. Not ideal. I guess it will all resolve. Please don't shoot the messenger.

Far from it,I will buy the messenger a pint next time we meet. I wonder how many of the trade have also come to the same conclusion.?
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

Yes. Not ideal. I guess it will all resolve.

As I've remarked earlier, I think no-one is going to enforce any of these regulations, so that will be the resolution.

After all, we've seen it all before. 2013/24/EC passed into UK law on 10th November 2003 made all the throttle controlled e-bikes sold after that date illegal without type approval, but not once was any of the tens of thousands of users of those e-bikes prosecuted in the 12 years since. They are still illegal now, despite the DfT saying they have grandfather rights, since there is no provision in the current version of the law for that, namely 168/2013.

What the DfT have said in effect is that they have grandfather rights to continue with their illegality! But no-one will care or do anything about the breach, past, present or future.
.

 

[trex]

The real issue is for the customer when he/she is involved in an accident.
What will you (traders), say then? Will your professional indemnity insurance cover you against the cost of litigation? I do hope for everyone's sake, that you have consulted with the DfT.

Planemo put it neatly in post #21:

...
The real issue (as others have said) would be if serious injury or damage occurs. Even then, a police proscecution may be unlikely but that would not prevent a civil claim being lodged which could effectively ruin the rider. In short, the police are the far lesser concern here IMO.

 

[Crockers]

Could not the release of a frame number etc be breach of the data protection act and therefore require a magistrates warrant before release.

Just a thought. Lol.

What power are those disability scooters one sees racing along the pavements?? They have throttles. Are they excempt due to having 4 wheels? If so how about two tiny ones on the saddle. Lol

 

[flecc]

The real issue is for the customer when he/she is involved in an accident.
What will you (traders), say then? Will your professional indemnity insurance cover you against the cost of litigation? I do hope for everyone's sake, that you have consulted with the DfT.

Planemo put it neatly in post #21:

I look at the history. As I remarked just above, nearly all these e-bikes have been illegal ever since November 2003, in which time there have been numerous accidents involving them. But not once has their legality been challenged in the courts by an insurance company or other third party. I see no reason why it will be any different now.
.

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

David, is this their (BAGB members') interpretation of the law or they have had some correspondence with the DfT? How the dealer or the police are going to know if a bike is imported before certain date?

Yes but like any law open to interpretation until there has been a test case. I am happy with this conclusion. We only have a few bikes left with throttles, we bought them prior to 2016 so there can be no argument over when they were landed plus we record the frame serial numbers of bikes.

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

Happy New Year,
Why are we relying on advice from BAGB? Are they a government Dept or another trade body.?
Anyway,shouldn't we be seeking advice directly from the Dft?
The last document issued by the Dft was that the bikes had to be 'used by' the 1/1/2016,is this out of date now?
'Bikes landed in the UK before this year'....how do the police determine the date which bikes were landed in the UK?
There is no system to determine the precise date upon which a particular batch of bikes were imported into the UK,there is no cross reference between import documentation and build numbers.
If they advised a bottom bracket number,I may be able to advise the date that was built but I could never tell when that particular bike was imported.
This law gets more woolly by the day.
Ps....should have done my homework......BAGB ,Bicycle Association of Great Britain,are a trade body funded by the cycle industry,oh no! Not another bl..... Trade body!!! They are not even a government quango so they have absolutely no power to make such statements,the Dft could change their minds next week and say all throttles are banned!

KudosDave

We all have to make our own decision based on the information we have. Most of the bikes we sell do not have throttles so it is not a massive deal for us. There are some importers out there who are not aware of the regualtion change which is more worrying.
While trade bodies do not have any direct power to make changes they can help act as one unified voice to government which can make a big difference, I have seen it in other industries.

Alot of politicians have no direct power unless directly responsible for a particular area this does not mean they can have some impact though!

In theory if government passed a law anything could be banned though I would suggest depends largely on how popular it is.

Just my opinion

 

[Kudoscycles]

Yes but like any law open to interpretation until there has been a test case. I am happy with this conclusion. We only have a few bikes left with throttles, we bought them prior to 2016 so there can be no argument over when they were landed plus we record the frame serial numbers of bikes.

I am in the same situation,most of my bikes have only 4 mph throttles but the few that have full speed throttles will last for another 12 months.
We only record the frame numbers of bikes when they are sold,when PDI the bike,I see no requirement to record frame numbers at shipment entry date....that would be a nightmare of a task,the numbers are generated at random,it would involve opening every bike (on a 40 foot HQ that could be 150 bikes),turning the bike upside down and noting the frame No and shipment date.
Even in response to a warrant I could only advise the frame number against the customer invoice at the point of sale,the date that bike came into the country is not relevant.
KudosDave

 

[trex]

I can understand from a dealer's perspective, having a few bikes with throttle bought in before the law changed, it seems fair that these bikes remain legal.

But do all imported bikes before Jan 1st have automatically 'grandfathers rights'?
somehow I doubt that the DfT would confirm that it's the correct interpretation of the law.

 

[Kudoscycles]

The real issue is for the customer when he/she is involved in an accident.
What will you (traders), say then? Will your professional indemnity insurance cover you against the cost of litigation? I do hope for everyone's sake, that you have consulted with the DfT.

Planemo put it neatly in post #21:

Trex...it appears the Dft have stated via BAGB that as long as the bike was imported prior to 1/1/2016 then the rider can have a full speed throttle. At the moment that is easy,even bikes sold mid 2016,provided they are imported in 2015,the importer could declare that they are ok with full speed throttles.
But an importer could,for example,bring in a batch of bikes April 2016,as long as their is no cross check frame number to import date,who could prove when a particular bike was imported....you could keep full speed throttles going for years,claiming they are still part of the batch of 2015.
Who would do that...the same sort of companies that sell S-class bikes or fit dongles,it gives a commercial advantage.
It will be a nightmare for the police to prove the provenance of a particular bike,impossible I would say.
KudosDave

 

[trex]

..it appears the Dft have stated via BAGB that as long as the bike was imported prior to 1/1/2016 then the rider can have a full speed throttle...

BW inferred that's the case but it would re-assure all members who are thinking of getting a new e-bike with throttle that their bike is 100% legal if we could have a quote from their correspondence with the DfT.

 

[flecc]

What power are those disability scooters one sees racing along the pavements?? They have throttles. Are they excempt due to having 4 wheels?

They are exempted from type approval as motor vehicles in the type approval law 168/20143, with this clause:

(b) vehicles exclusively intended for use by the physically handicapped

Pedelecs exemption is in this clause:

(h) pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h

Which as you can see, does not allow throttles.

In (b) above, physically handicapped is not defined, so that is a national matter. It appears at present that this is being left to the individual in the UK where pavement vehicles are concerned.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

BW inferred that's the case but it would re-assure all members who are thinking of getting a new e-bike with throttle that their bike is 100% legal if we could have a quote from their correspondence with the DfT.

Trex....that is looking unlikely....not sure the Dft really care?
The quality of communication to traders about this subject seems to me about the same level as Bar room chat.
Does anybody know something definite?
I still don't understand why BAGB and BEBA are the communication line,we should have an announcement direct from the Dft.
I wanted to talk direct to the Dft but BEBA didn't seem keen on that,we now realise why...lets be honest it's a complete mess.
KudosDave

 

[D C]

They are exempted from type approval as motor vehicles in the type approval law 168/20143, with this clause:

(b) vehicles exclusively intended for use by the physically handicapped

Pedelecs exemption is in this clause:

(h) pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h

Which as you can see, does not allow throttles.

In (b) above, physically handicapped is not defined, so that is a national matter. It appears at present that this is being left to the individual in the UK where pavement vehicles are concerned.
.

I arranged the purchase of a mobility scooter for an elderly neighbour and being road legal it's capable of 8mph top speed.
4mph is the legal limit if used on the pavement but it's left to the user to set to 4mph when entering a pedestrian area and I suspect some users may not do this.
At the point of purchase of a new one it's left to the user to sign a form stating their disability, there's no check on this, and VAT is not charged.
As my neighbour is unable to charge it himself I break the law most weeks by riding it a few hundred yards round to my garage to charge it up, I'll be continuing to do this and hoping the short journey will be without incident.
Dave.

 

[flecc]

I arranged the purchase of a mobility scooter for an elderly neighbour and being road legal it's capable of 8mph top speed.
4mph is the legal limit if used on the pavement but it's left to the user to set to 4mph when entering a pedestrian area and I suspect some users may not do this.
At the point of purchase of a new one it's left to the user to sign a form stating their disability, there's no check on this, and VAT is not charged.
As my neighbour is unable to charge it himself I break the law most weeks by riding it a few hundred yards round to my garage to charge it up, I'll be continuing to do this and hoping the short journey will be without incident.
Dave.

Yes, I knew the speed rules and it's true that some do leave them on 8mph when transfering to pavements, especially when they are empty and they feel they can speed. I've often seen it happen in my area.

I very much doubt that your riding one will ever be questioned if your area is anything like mine, no-one seems to police them.
.

 

[JuicyBike]

Yes but like any law open to interpretation until there has been a test case. I am happy with this conclusion. We only have a few bikes left with throttles, we bought them prior to 2016 so there can be no argument over when they were landed plus we record the frame serial numbers of bikes.

Seems to me you're doing exactly the right thing - you're recording evidence that may be called upon if your customer should ever be in a situation, say following an accident, that requires them to show they were riding a legal bike. Well worth the extra vigilance, though hopefully never to be used.

 

[Planemo]

I look at the history. As I remarked just above, nearly all these e-bikes have been illegal ever since November 2003, in which time there have been numerous accidents involving them. But not once has their legality been challenged in the courts by an insurance company or other third party. I see no reason why it will be any different now.
.

To be fair though the pedelec market has only exploded in the last few years, what with the advances in battery and motor tech, not to mention lower pricing. In addition I would wager that there are a lot more bikes running at 20mph+ than there was a few years ago. I hope you are right, but I see a storm brewing and it will only take one serious incident to set a precident. A bike V pedestrian at 20mph could make for a nasty one no doubt. I appreciate that roadies may hit this speed often but it will generally be in open areas and they are also generally experienced riders who look ahead. To finish, we are also now firmly in a blame culture which was in its infancy only a few years ago. I know something, if I was hospitalised by being hit by a pedelec I would be getting police to the scene to grab the bike before it dissappeared into the owners shed for 'fiddling'...

 

[flecc]

To be fair though the pedelec market has only exploded in the last few years, what with the advances in battery and motor tech, not to mention lower pricing. In addition I would wager that there are a lot more bikes running at 20mph+ than there was a few years ago. I

It's true that the market has expanded since then, by about 50% in the better years now. As for more running at 20+ mph It's hard to tell since the illegally high speed market has always existed. Going back to the year this forum started, the biggest selling quality e-bike of 2006 and 2007 was the original eZee Torq, almost entirely because it power assisted to 22 mph and was openly sold as such. At one point 38% of the members in here owned one, including me and this site's founder. A number of competitors appeared openly sold as or instantly modifiable to 18 to 20 mph assist.

Nationally we had the annual Presteigne e-bike rally which had a multi-lap race on public streets, won by eZee Torqs at first but in the third year by a home built high speed Crystalyte motored bike. Each year there were many more of the home built very fast bikes in that race, some dual motored.

There's no equivalent of any of those now, and the market is filled with a huge choice of very legal bikes including far more EU style pedelecs with no throttles than back then.

There are more of the S class bikes bought and illegally used now than in those earlier years, but overall I don't think things are so dramatically different where illegal speeds are concerned.
.

 

[Linfitter]

My reading is that throttles in themselves are not unlawful as long as the pedals are being turned.
There is no ban on them, simply the requirement that the motor is switched off if the pedals cease to turn.
So, a bike fitted with a simple pedelec magnet ring could be throttle controlled as long as the pedals are pedalled however slowly.

Correct in your assumption Mike.

If I wanted a legal fully variable 'throttle' operated bike I'd just make my back wheel fixed gear so that if the rear wheel turns so does the crank and pedals. And if the Crank and Pedals turn so does the Motor. All perfectly legal. No problem

Linfitter

 

[Kudoscycles]

Seems to me you're doing exactly the right thing - you're recording evidence that may be called upon if your customer should ever be in a situation, say following an accident, that requires them to show they were riding a legal bike. Well worth the extra vigilance, though hopefully never to be used.

Why oh why did we not just join with the rest of Europe and make EN15194 obligatory,throttles up to 4mph. As there are so many S-class bikes in the UK then allow S-class.
Whatever is the law in Germany we should have just copied it,it all seems to work for them,we have similar terrain to Germany so why should it not work for us.
We now have a ridiculous situation that S-class and dongled illegal bikes are openly sold in the UK and now we have a further illegal factor,full speed throttles.
90 % of the bikes sold in the UK are to the German spec,most of my Kudos bikes are to the German spec,because that is the biggest market then that is the spec that even the Chinese build to.
Anyone who has ever spent a day in an e-bike retailer will tell you that 30% of customers want either more power or more speed,put a full speed throttle on a 500 watt S-class and they are in e-bike nirvana,they don't care about the illegality and neither do some of the retailers....the most prolific seller is also the biggest profile,so these are not back street operations.
The Dft had the best opportunity to clear up the current mess but they seem to have created a new law without perceiving the consequences,it will just open up another channel of illegals and why not,the police and trading standards ignore S-class and dongles,we now have full speed throttles,they will be much more difficult to check I doubt if a prosecution is possible-the new law has so many loopholes.
Business needs certainty to design for the future...if you were a UK e-bike designer looking 12 months ahead what spec would you make these bikes?
Could BEBA and the BAGB have not guided the Dft better?
KudosDave