I'm beginning to hate (some) cyclists

[flecc]

In th UK, bikes can mean much more to a lot of owners.

The Dutch cycle for everything, they also have sporting cycling and have produced many fine competitive professional riders competing in such as the Tour de France. They use a wide variety of goods carrying bikes and many types of bike for transporting kids with adults. They also ride for simple pleasure and with the severe headwinds that cross the polders often use recumbents and even velomobiles. And of course shopping and social journeys by bike are the norm in The Netherlands.

What bikes mean to the Dutch is far more than what they mean in Britain and I'm astonished you think different! It's the British who notoriously have very narrow views of cycling.
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[SRS]

Flecc

Perhaps, I did not word it very well. I used to work for Eurotunnel, spent a lot of time over there. The impression I got from the locals in the bars was that a bikes a bike. If theirs was missing upon coming out of the pub, another would do to get home.

In the UK many cyclists talk about weight, specific componentry, clip
less pedals, Led lumens etc. I did not hear any of that over there, the bike was just a means of getting about. The could not give a tsss of he bars weighed in at an extra 100 grams.

I hope this takes back your astonishment.

 

[flecc]

Yes, that is absolutely true SRS, they will use any bike and don't concern themselves as much with such specifics. And of course that is the sort of difference that I, and indeed Eddie, are speaking of.

They don't have our snobbish attitudes to bikes, which is why they use such a wide variety of types designed for so many purposes. Our bikes mainly fall into just two types, MTB and Road and most British cyclists wouldn't be seen dead on a long wheelbase transporter with long cargo box in front, or a family bike with safe positions for three kids of different ages with mum or dad.
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[mike killay]

Belgian school kids at Ypres visiting the battlefields

 

[flecc]

Interesting that the kids on that trip have safety vests, parents usually never require those worn over there. Presumably the schools there are beginning to be infected by the PC safety culture that inflicts us. Still no helmets though I'm pleased to see.
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[SRS]

It a real shame, many people and families are missing out.

On the odd occasion that I have seen a local dad on a cargo bike with a couple of small kids on the back, it has attracted nothing but admiration and nice comments from onlookers.

I believe that he takes his kids home from school on it and it is lovely to see.

There really is no solution until a good many people stop worrying about what other people think. Can't see it happening just yet.

 

[flecc]

It a real shame, many people and families are missing out.

On the odd occasion that I have seen a local dad on a cargo bike with a couple of small kids on the back, it has attracted nothing but admiration and nice comments from onlookers.

I believe that he takes his kids home from school on it and it is lovely to see.

There really is no solution until a good many people stop worrying about what other people think. Can't see it happening just yet.

Indeed, and the fact is that kids transported in these unconventional ways love it. Far better than the boredom of being strapped into the family's 4x4 or people carrier.
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[mike killay]

Flecc,
I think that it is law out there that school kids on excursions must wear vests. Only seems to apply to Belgian children.
They also have Police escort front and back

 

[flecc]

 

[flecc]

Flecc,
I think that it is law out there that school kids on excursions must wear vests. Only seems to apply to Belgian children.
They also have Police escort front and back

Thanks for the info Mike, good to see that it doesn't extend to helmets too, since they are such a deterrent to just hopping on at will for any journey.
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[mike killay]

Unimportant Belgian road.
and
Main North South route in Wales.

 

[mike killay]

Thanks for the info Mike, good to see that it doesn't extend to helmets too, since they are such a deterrent to just hopping on at will for any journey.
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I should have clarified Flecc, it seems to apply to children on foot as well as cycles if they are taken out during school hours.
I noticed a few weeks ago that my local village Primary School has started doing the same thing.

 

[flecc]

I should have clarified Flecc, it seems to apply to children on foot as well as cycles if they are taken out during school hours.
I noticed a few weeks ago that my local village Primary School has started doing the same thing.

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I've seen this in my area too, also on TV with the "Walking Bus" initiatives for walking groups of children to school.
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[mike killay]

Many vests seem to carry adverts so perhaps local businesses sponsor them.

 

[flapajack]

We've seen plenty of videos of commuting in the Netherlands and Denmark and they look exactly like that first photo. They commute on upright utility style bikes in normal street clothing.

I second that, having plenty of first hand experience of the early morning commuters in Netherlands City centres.

 

[JamesW]

We've seen plenty of videos of commuting in the Netherlands and Denmark and they look exactly like that first photo. They commute on upright utility style bikes in normal street clothing.

Would like to point out at this point that most of Holland and Denmark (as we know it now) has been reclaimed from the sea over the last 1500+ years and as a consequence is very flat. 15 miles in Belgium, Holland or Denmark is very different from 15 miles in most of the UK. Give us a global sea level rise of 5m and we'll see if they have to swap those bikes for pedalos!
( that level of rise should also solve the problem of Londons transport infrastructure too!)

 

[JamesW]

So the complaint here is that the UK did not suffer the infrastructure damage in ww2 that the rest of northern Europe did and so never had to rebuild with business being run by bikes in the citys until everywhere was financially stable again?

 

[JohnCade]

It's pure fantasy to believe that the cycling infrastructure is always perfect in such as the Netherlands and Denmark, and we've had the odd video link to posted in here showing that tough conditions also exist. One posted by someone living there showed a very scary narrow road section with cyclists and cars mixing it, presumably in one of their older towns. The natural tendency to post photos of the ideal there for cycling can be very misleading.

The proposition that the hugely experienced Dutch cyclists couldn't cope in Central London I find unbelievable and your belief that it's all about the infrastructure shows you are in denial of the obvious huge difference in cycling attitudes in the two places. Do you really believe that Dutch cyclists called upon to cycle commute in London would immediately change their bikes, dress in Lycra and put on cycle helmets?

I'm betting the subject of this thread, abuse of e-bikers by another group of cyclists couldn't crop up in The Netherlands and Denmark, I'm confident that it doesn't exist there, further showing the huge difference in attitudes.
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I think you're wrong. Dutch cyclists on those bikes would have kittens mixing it with the traffic in central London. It isn't so much their attitudes that is different it's the attitudes of the drivers, who unlike Dutch drivers don't want them on the road at all.

Proper traffic segregation as pointed out on the Saville thread is the way to do it as anyone with any sense knows. The unrestricted use of cars in large cities which we have seen in the last century is a nonsense which is coming to an end anyway with pollution and wasted productive time. Self driving cars are being tested here now and are a decade or so away from introduction at most. The Thatcher government believed that traffic congestion was a sign of economic well being and did not want to restrict it. But they only had to go to Mexico City or Istanbul or any other third world city to see it was really a problem of the underdeveloped world.

 

[flecc]

So the complaint here is that the UK did not suffer the infrastructure damage in ww2 that the rest of northern Europe did and so never had to rebuild with business being run by bikes in the citys until everywhere was financially stable again?

Not my complaint James, I'm not concerned about the reason that bikes persisted in the Netherlands. My posts were about the very different attitudes there and the consequences of those attitudes.

 

[flecc]

I think you're wrong. Dutch cyclists on those bikes would have kittens mixing it with the traffic in central London. It isn't so much their attitudes that is different it's the attitudes of the drivers, who unlike Dutch drivers don't want them on the road at all.

Proper traffic segregation as pointed out on the Saville thread is the way to do it as anyone with any sense knows. The unrestricted use of cars in large cities which we have seen in the last century is a nonsense which is coming to an end anyway with pollution and wasted productive time. Self driving cars are being tested here now and are a decade or so away from introduction at most. The Thatcher government believed that traffic congestion was a sign of economic well being and did not want to restrict it. But they only had to go to Mexico City or Istanbul or any other third world city to see it was really a problem of the underdeveloped world.

I'm largely in agreement with this John and indeed the attitudes of all our road users are relevant to the big differences. Critical mass here is important, Dutch cycling never slumped to the very low level ours did in the 1970s, so with the majority of Dutch drivers also being part time cyclists, courtesy towards cyclists was always going to be present. That is reinforced by even their local and national politicians often being cyclists, legislating accordingly. Here a bike riding politician excites lots of media attention as something out of the ordinary, even freakish.

Also here sadly, a very high proportion of drivers have never ridden a bicycle, and most of the remainder haven't ridden since a child many years ago.

One thing I disagree on is when we'll get driverless cars, but not because the technology is lacking. I listened to a program in which some lawyers were discussing the issue, and the depth and breadth of complexities in a variety of laws that they uncovered were almost unbelievable. Their belief, which I found convincing, is that the law will impede their adoption for a very long time, such are the difficulties.
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