Help wanted with Boss adjustment

[pn_day]

There's quite a few controllers like that. Every controller is different. Unfortunately they never give you that sort of information in the controller specification. I'm not using my big controllers at the moment, so I can't say what the delay is on a S12S, but I don't remember it being noticeable. Perhaps if someone has a S06S they could check it. The software for the S12S should be the same.

Just to wade in here. I have the S12S and it takes 2 turns of the crank to bring the system back up to full power - however I'm Ok with that as it ramps the power up gradually which should save wear on the motor.

So it probably is the controller. Good luck with the discussions - it does sound like some margin has been added!

 

[allen-uk]

Thanks pn, that's useful.

Just for the record, I've not been complaining about the price - Otherwise I wouldn't have bought a top of the range Wisper originally.

But when you pay Rolls Royce prices, you expect the clock to work!

A

 

[trex]

we should not be too hasty to rubbish TETS about this. They've done a good job but it does not quite suit the customer, that's all there is to it. Maybe changing the PAS disc to 12 magnets double Hall would do the trick.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

It's difficult to say without seeing what they've done for the money. As far as I can see, they're selling and fitting a Xofo kit. The same one as Frank sold as his Xipi kits, but with a different battery in a frame bag rather than the aluminium box one that Frank did. £1500 for a fully installed system, to me, sounds just about reasonable if it has good guarantees. The bit I can't understand is what the additional £1100 was for, of which £600 was for a PAS function, which it should have had in the first place. I'm intrigued, I can't say that it's unreasonable because I don't have any facts, but on the surface, it doesn't quite add up.

 

[allen-uk]

There are two separate issues here.

On the one hand, the price, which I repeat I am NOT questioning. It was my choice to go to their website, to their shop, to choose the £2K Boss system, and my choice to accept their onward quote of an extra 33% for making the bike do what I wanted. Maybe I'm a mug with more money than sense, but that's not the primary issue!

On the other hand, the functioning of the finished system. What I'm asking of my fellow ebikers here is ammunition and if you like moral support, so that when I get involved in a confrontation with TETS, with me saying "This bike isn't doing what you said it would do,", and them saying "All bikes are different, you'll get used to it," I will be able to gird up my loins and argue.

And believe me, one of the drawbacks of getting old and feeble is that you REALLY don't want to have to bother arguing any more! The only weapon now left in my armoury is money., viz I can buy things that I (presume) will work. (I would RATHER be 40 years younger, but you can't have it all).

Why can't it all be simple?

A (Photos shortly)

 

[Deleted member 4366]

There's nothing wrong with your bike. If you had given them a specification to build to that said the power must come within 0.5 secs of start of pedalling, and it didn't do that, you would be able to get something done.

There's a few things that could be done. You could get a Cycle Analyst v3 and a Thun torque sensor for about £220, and run your brakes and throttle signal through it. Your brakes will then interrupt the throttle signal, not the controller, so it'll start immediately you let go of the brakes. The torque sensor also makes a throttle signal, so it's the same result.

Other than that, you need a new controller, but you need to know the delay time for the brakes. Without knowing how much current you want, it's not possible to recommend one. You haven't given us any details of your system yet, so it's impossible to help. You might already have a CA and Thun, which would go some way to justifying the price, but we have no idea.

 

[allen-uk]

Points taken d8veh, taken completely. I haven't given you any specifics like that cos I wasn't GIVEN any specifics like that! No handbook, no manual, no nothing.

Here are the pics, some of which might help the analysis, although not much - the only bits that has words is the battery. Couldn't see any markings at all on the motor, or the controller, or the throttle or switches on the bars. So, for what they're worth, here they are:

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Right. Now we're getting somewhere. That looks like a Crystalyte motor. This one or similar:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Brushless-Direct-Drive-High-Power-Electric_961489815.html

Do you have any sort of control panel on the handlebars, and what's that switch for?

Edit: after a bit more looking, I don't think that is a real Crystalyte.

 

[allen-uk]

No LCD.

All that's on the bars is:
right hand side, throttle and on/off switch (pictured).
left hand side, a "I II III" switch for power levels, new picture below. The 'other' switch next to the throttle is my Gravitydropper.

The only visual display is on the throttle housing - three little lights come on for fully charged, and go out one by one as the battery runs down.

A.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I'm very puzzled by what you've got. The Boss system in their advert and video is a cassette geared motor (probably Xofo), but you have a completely different (what appears to be) Chinese $100 motor with a pretty standard controller, cheapo PAS and throttle. A really high quality kit, like a Falco or Bionx can be had for less than £1500. They both have sophisticated PAS systems, but no throttle. I just cannot see where the money went to.

The cause of your problem and solution are still the same as I mentioned before: Torque sensor conversion or new controller. There's also a couple of displays that convert a PAS signal to a throttle signal amd multiplex it to the normal throttle. They only cost a few quid. BMSBattery used to do one, but it's disappeared from their listings now. I 'm just going out now so no time to search. Perhaps someone else can provide the link. Parnett has one.

 

[allen-uk]

Thanks for spending some of your Sunday thinking about it, D8veh; appreciated.

The only other bits of info I haven't relayed: The throttle works totally independently of the pedal assist, so while it DOES cut out when the brakes are applied, it comes back in instantly they are released.

The guy who did the actual work has since left TETS London, which is a shame. Couple of things he said/did during the process: that he had to gear the system DOWN to 70% of power as if he'd left the pedals at full power they'd be going faster than you could pedal. And at the death, as he was going out of the door he said (verbatim) that "if the pedal assist doesn't kick in, then give the throttle a blip, and it'll come back in".

Bikes do differ, I know, but I still want to get this one as close to my original spec as possible, which was like a 'souped up Wisper'...

A.

 

[allen-uk]

Hello d8veh & the rest of you who've read this and tried to help.

An update.

Originally, TETS said that it was the bike's unique characteristics to behave as it did, and that I would get used to it.

Finally, the new guy at ETS London looked at it and agreed that while the electrics and mechanics were working fine, the functioning itself was wrong, and his verdict is:

I've now contacted the supplier of these parts in USA to see where to go with it, awaiting a response now. The parts on the bike all look mechanically and electrically sound. So i believe there is a compatibility issue between the pedelec disc and sensor.

Sounds like an explanation, but as I know NOTHING about discs or sensors, could someone give me a translation (and an opinion) of what he says?

Thanks.

Allen.

 

[jackhandy]

Think I'd be inclined to tell him to try a couple of alternative sensor/magnet ring combinations - Rocket science it ain't & any kit fitter that doesn't keep simple spares like those...

 

[Deleted member 4366]

My interpretation is that the controller is an infineon from Em3ev. There was a recent post on Endless-Sphere, where a guy had a pedal sensor that didn't work properly. I suggested to him that the software in his controller wasn't compatible to the type of sensor he had. He changed the sensor and it worked perfectly. Maybe ETS read that thread.

The controller you have isn't really suitable for pedal assistance, so the £600 you paid was completely wasted. They should have fitted something like the S12SH from BMSBattery, which allows you to set the level of assistance via a LCD control panel. I'm very sorry, but as far as I can see, they've done a terrible job and they've given you totally the wrong kit for what you want, although I don't know what you agreed with them should have been done. Did you ask then what the £600 was for, when they, ve given you the wrong controller for pedal assist with a high power motor?

I'm really sorry to have to explain it like this. If I could do something to make your bike better I'd do it. Basically, your bike is unsuitable for a 20ah 48v battery. They should have told you that before fitting the kit. It now needs a new controller, so basically, you're left with a bike with a $100 motor fitted and you need a very clever design/fabrication solution to fit any suitable battery let alone a 48v 20ah one. I think if I were you, unless you agreed otherwise with them, I'd take the bike back and tell them to fit the Boss kit like the one you ordered which is shown on their website.

 

[allen-uk]

Hello d8veh,

And as usual thanks for your input.

Life, of course, is complicated.

The Boss system they sell for £2K is a high-torque THROTTLE-ONLY system.

Which I don't want. I want a bike like my Wisper, full pedal assist plus throttle, but more powerful.

So when I discussed this with TETS, they said that 'Yes,' they could do that, and quoted me the extra 33% for the extra work, special brake levers with electric cut-outs, special rear rack to house controller and battery, etc. I agreed.

Maybe they should have said 'No,' it wasn't possible; I don't know. I am just a 'simple' customer.

I will have to wait a few days till they propose their solution, once and for all, to this problem. It has occurred to me to take my bike to a DIFFERENT electric bike shop to have it finished/fixed, but contrary to expectation, there aren't that many in London.

(This has been going on for nearly 6 months since I first delivered my bike for conversion).

I know that if you were me you'd probably shout and rage, but I'm not sure it would do any good at this stage!

Allen.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

OK, I understand. Please let us know how it pans out. I think that if you'd paid about £1200, I'd be blaming you for not tying down the seller to a clear speciication, but for £2600, I'd expect a top professional job from them. You can buy a good Haibike for that sort of money.

Let's hope that they see sense and get it sorted out to a standard that satisfies you.

If in the end, they don't, I'll sort it for you if you want. You'll have to pay about £70 return shipping. I can't do it just yet though because I'm doing Benjis. He was threatening to take his to ETS, but I managed to save him.

 

[allen-uk]

d8veh: that goes far beyond what I asked, but it is an offer I might take up.

Thanks indeed - at least it gives me a welcome way out of this hole, if I need it.

I'll keep you informed.


A.

PS Thanks too, jackhandy; I know you're right, but like many ebikers I really am a dunce at the sharp end, so arguments get one-sided...

 

[allen-uk]

Your opinions welcomed on this:

ETS say they can do the job, i.e. fit smooth continuous pedelec operation, but ONLY if I settle for ONE power level, not the 1-2-3 as presently fitted.

This, says the new guy at London, would give smooth operation at the SAME power setting as having the throttle wide open - so I assume that once you were bowling along, if you found it too fast you'd just have to stop pedalling for a bit.

Does this sound a reasonable solution? I have the power on my Wisper 905 at max all the time without a problem, but will the vastly increased torque on the Boss mean that my feet can't keep up with the pedals?

Advice welcomed, thanks.


Allen.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Not at all. It'll be diabolical. Has he ever tried anything like that? You need a controller with a LCD and at least five levels of assist. The S12S or S12SH from BMSBattery should do it. They're sine-wave controllers for smoother quieter power, and you can switch them between speed control and current control, so you can have 5 levels of current instead of speed.

 

[allen-uk]

Thanks d8veh.

I've conveyed that thought to TETS London, as having glanced on Google the controllers you mention are less than 50 dollars, small beer against the lump I've paid out so far.

Many thanks for the excellent and specific advice; I must owe you many pints by now.


A.