Difficulties getting an e-car, Part 2

Some may remember me looking into buying a Nissan Leaf e-car some while ago and the conclusion that at £32,000 and a replacement batttery after about 4 to 5 years at £16,000, it simply wasn't worth trying, even without the other problems like short range etc. Even the government's £5,000 grant didn't improve that enough

Since then the failure to sell them has led to steep price drops. The list price of the most basic model is now £20,790 after the government grant discount, but no dealer sells at that still too high price. So I did a national price quote sweep for a new one with battery included at the on-the-road price,

The highest price quoted was £16,640, including my nearest dealer. The lowest was at Leicester and Liverpool, both at £11,640 or about a third of the original cost. I don't know what it was about that £640 on the end, it appeared on some intermediate prices too so is obviously precious to dealers. Perhaps it's what the salesman pockets?

However, at £11,640 it's very competitive with similar petrol and diesel hatchbacks, so well worth investigating.

But there's a problem for me. Like many in cities my garage is a little separate from my home with land not owned by me in between, so the only way i can get electricity to it for charging is for it to have its own supply and meter, connected to the National Grid main. As there's just 23 metres of grassland and one narrow footpath between the garage back wall and the nearest main supply cable I thought maybe £1000 would fix that.

So I contacted the website of the National Grid agent for my zone, UK Power networks, to learn that they have a minimum charge for this of £1548, plus a minimum of £55 per metre to dig the trench.So that total cost will be £2813 plus some more for the footpath crossing added cost. But that just gets the cable to the garage wall.

To get a meter I have to have an electricity supplier to provide it at an extra cost for the connection, meter and box on the back wall. But still there's still nothing into the garage, so I have to have them or an electrician to drill the garage back wall and connect a pyro line to a twin socket and light fitting inside, all at another cost. I could easily do that myself since I've done so as part of my work many years ago, but changes in the law have outlawed anyone other than a recoginsed electrician doing so now.

The conclusion is that I can see the supply costing between £3,500 and £4,000 when completed, so that added to the cost of the car returns it to being a somewhat unattractive option. The aggro doesn't help either, with up 8 weeks and sometimes much more to get the main supply laid, it makes it difficult to arrange the car purchase timing, since it would be no use without a supply. And that delay could mean the current special car discounts disappearing, adding several thousands more to the cost. Either that or paying for the car perhaps months before being able to use it.

So for the second time the I've abandoned the idea. Since they still aren't selling even at these extreme discounts, maybe I'll wait until they start giving them away.

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Some may remember me looking into buying a Nissan Leaf e-car some while ago and the conclusion that at £32,000 and a replacement batttery after about 4 to 5 years at £16,000, it simply wasn't worth trying, even without the other problems like short range etc. Even the government's £5,000 grant didn't improve that enough

 

Since then the failure to sell them has led to steep price drops. The list price of the most basic model is now £20,790 after the government grant discount, but no dealer sells at that still too high price. So I did a national price quote sweep for a new one with battery included at the on-the-road price,

 

The highest price quoted was £16,640, including my nearest dealer. The lowest was at Leicester and Liverpool, both at £11,640 or about a third of the original cost. I don't know what it was about that £640 on the end, it appeared on some intermediate prices too so is obviously precious to dealers. Perhaps it's what the salesman pockets?

 

However, at £11,640 it's very competitive with similar petrol and diesel hatchbacks, so well worth investigating.

 

But there's a problem for me. Like many in cities my garage is a little separate from my home with land not owned by me in between, so the only way i can get electricity to it for charging is for it to have its own supply and meter, connected to the National Grid main. As there's just 23 metres of grassland and one narrow footpath between the garage back wall and the nearest main supply cable I thought maybe £1000 would fix that.

 

So I contacted the website of the National Grid agent for my zone, UK Power networks, to learn that they have a minimum charge for this of £1548, plus a minimum of £55 per metre to dig the trench.So that total cost will be £2813 plus some more for the footpath crossing added cost. But that just gets the cable to the garage wall.

 

To get a meter I have to have an electricity supplier to provide it at an extra cost for the connection, meter and box on the back wall. But still there's still nothing into the garage, so I have to have them or an electrician to drill the garage back wall and connect a pyro line to a twin socket and light fitting inside, all at another cost. I could easily do that myself since I've done so as part of my work many years ago, but changes in the law have outlawed anyone other than a recoginsed electrician doing so now.

 

The conclusion is that I can see the supply costing between £3,500 and £4,000 when completed, so that added to the cost of the car returns it to being a somewhat unattractive option. The aggro doesn't help either, with up 8 weeks and sometimes much more to get the main supply laid, it makes it difficult to arrange the car purchase timing, since it would be no use without a supply. And that delay could mean the current special car discounts disappearing, adding several thousands more to the cost. Either that or paying for the car perhaps months before being able to use it.

 

So for the second time the I've abandoned the idea. Since they still aren't selling even at these extreme discounts, maybe I'll wait until they start giving them away.

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I assume you're referring to 3phase power right? I know the tesla charges really slowly on a lowly 16amp feed. Not so with a 32/3phase supply.

I assume you're referring to 3phase power right? I know the tesla charges really slowly on a lowly 16amp feed. Not so with a 32/3phase supply.

No Steve, those costs were for a normal single phase supply. The Leaf will charge at a 10 Amp rate from a 13 Amp socket in about 12 hours, assuming there's a little left in the battery at the start. That's ok for me since I'm not a daily driver and an overnight charge does.

For those with greater need Nissan do a four hour charge unit at extra cost.

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I've not looked into this personally, but a colleague has purchased a Leaf in the past few weeks. He did quite s bit of research and at one point was talking about free charging point installation. Government sponsored scheme?

I'm sure you will have covered this, but thought I'd mention it just in case.

I've not looked into this personally, but a colleague has purchased a Leaf in the past few weeks. He did quite s bit of research and at one point was talking about free charging point installation. Government sponsored scheme?

 

I'm sure you will have covered this, but thought I'd mention it just in case.

Thanks Tillson. Dealers make no mention of one when discussing charge point costs and if there was I'm sure they'd use that as a selling point. I think what your colleague was probably speaking of was the free-to-charge points that are installed on streets and in various public car parks, and they are government subsidised. They are for while at work or shopping of course so no good to me, since it's a long charge period at home that I'd need. The charge cost is immaterial since it's only about £4 for a full charge, a bit cheaper than a tankful of petrol.

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Thanks Tillson. Dealers make no mention of one when discussing charge point costs and if there was I'm sure they'd use that as a selling point. I think what your colleague was probably speaking of was the free-to-charge points that are installed on streets and in various public car parks, and they are government subsidised. They are for while at work or shopping of course so no good to me, since it's a long charge period at home that I'd need. The charge cost is immaterial since it's only about £4 for a full charge, a bit cheaper than a tankful of petrol.

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I'll contact him today and clarify exactly what he did re home charging.

Will it have the range to get from Liverpool to your house without a recharge?

No, but I was intending to go to the Leicester identical offer at about 100 miles away. That couldn't be reliably done on a single charge either, but given the large saving I intended to do an overnight stop at a hotel with charging socket available before reaching London, then completing the trip in the morning.

That makes sense since the combined public transport trip from south of London to Leicester plus car pickup time would take up much of day one anyway. Then it would be safer to avoid an initial trip across London after dark in an unfamiliar car.

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Will it have the range to get from Liverpool to your house without a recharge?

Nope. I'm surprised at the £4 a charge Flecc says, so £4 per 45 miles (actually the new heater now means more like 70 miles) in worse case conditions.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/nissan/leaf/performance

ETA pipped by Flecc

No, but I was intending to go to the Leicester identical offer at about 100 miles away. That couldn't be reliably done on a single charge either, but given the large saving I intended to do an overnight stop at a hotel with charging socket available before reaching London, then completing the trip in the morning.

 

That makes sense since the combined public transport trip from south of London to Leicester plus car pickup time would take up much of day one anyway. Then it would be safer to avoid an initial trip across London after dark in an unfamiliar car.

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Don't most motorway service areas have free rapid DC chargers (20 mins to 80%) available now?

PS I've contacted my colleague re home charging points. Waiting for him to reply.

Don't most motorway service areas have free rapid DC chargers (20 mins to 80%) available now?

 

PS I've contacted my colleague re home charging points. Waiting for him to reply.

Yes, but to do similar on the Leaf requires a fast charger and a special lead at a considerable added cost, plus a higher cost home supply point. Since I would never need those again I wouldn't spend on them. Anyway, as said earlier, that still takes the fastest permitted 4 hours with the Leaf, this in the interests of battery longevity. Very fast charging lithium batteries slashes battery life, which is why I'd stick to the slow 12 hour charge.

You can gather I've gone into this very deeply.

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Edited December 4, 201510 yr by flecc

Here is someone managing London to Edinburgh in a Leaf.

I'm surprised at the £4 a charge Flecc says,

That's based on the 24 kW battery having a couple of kW left in.

Then the 22 kW charge plus a bit to cover charger inefficiency would mean about 24/27 units at around 15p per unit, £4 maximum.

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My colleague has just got back to me. The Office for Low Emmision Vehicles (OLEV) where offering 100% subsidies for home charging point installation and he had one installed under that scheme.

Unfortunately, the offer has ended now. He already had electricity in his garage, so in your case, where a supply and meter needs installing, this scheme may not have been available to you.

Hope you get it sorted at reasonable cost. Would it be worth explaining the charging point installation costs that you face to Nissan UK? Tell them you are eager to buy, but the additional cost is a deal breaker for you. They might be able to work something out with one of their, "tame electricians". I'm sure they must face this sort of situation on a regular basis and I bet they are keen to have as many Leafs on the road as possible.

Edited December 4, 201510 yr by tillson

My colleague has just got back to me. The Office for Low Emmision Vehicles (OLEV) where offering 100% subsidies for home charging point installation. Unfortunately, that's ended now.

We cant be wasting money on charging points...... we have Brimstone missiles to pay for.

My colleague has just got back to me. The Office for Low Emmision Vehicles (OLEV) where offering 100% subsidies for home charging point installation and he had one installed under that scheme.

 

Unfortunately, the offer has ended now. He already had electricity in his garage, so in your case, where a supply and meter needs installing, this scheme may not have been available to you.

Thanks Tillson, I knew of this for the internal cost, but no good in my case without a supply present.

In any case this may all come to nothing. I did the price quote search anonymously and am deeply suspicious about those two very low £11640 quotes.

Locally and in many other places they offer £16,640, some £4,000 below list and clearly subsidised by Nissan since that's well over normal dealer margins. The £11,640 is a further £5,000 off which seems very unlikely. Since the car without battery for those who want to monthly rent the battery is listed at a little over £4,000 lower, I'm suspicious that they are quoting the no-battery price less £1,000 (despite my clearly specifying otherwise), simply to get me talking and possibly persuadable.

Since I didn't want to show my hand too early or waste anyone's time, I checked out the mains installation costs first, since that was simply and quickly done online.

As I'm not going ahead due to the mains supply costs, I still won't reveal myself to dealers to leave open the option of trying again countrywide if things get even more favourable at a future time.

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That £11640 price, by comparison, does seem to be very low, so maybe a mistake or ploy to generate a face to face enquiry. My colleague paid more than that for a 12 month old Leaf.

Given all of the shortcomings of electric cars, I can't see them selling well, even at £11649. The battery degradation cost, which dwarfs the electricity cost, puts me off.

Another friend has Renault Zoe and he leases the battery for £90 / month. I don't spend that much on fuel for my VW Golf and I do more miles than he does. Plus (until the Master Race conned us all) my Golf will have a better re-sale value, the Golf is more versatile in terms of longer journeys and I won't suffer, "range anxiety." Which ever way I look at it, the ecconomics of electric just don't add up.

For me to be even vaguely tempted, they'd need to offer a Nissan Leaf for about £5000. Or, at £11640, the car would need a 200 mile range and 10 year battery life. Until one of those two things happen, or the government force IC engines off her road through tax making electric the only alternative, I will never own one. Maybe there is more of a case in London, but not up north at the moment. I'm sure that like me, you have done all the sums.

That £11640 price, by comparison, does seem to be very low, so maybe a mistake or ploy to generate a face to face enquiry.

Yes as I said I think that's probably the case, but since the Zoe which is basically th same car has been sold as low as £10,000 without battery, I didn't totally rule out the £11,640 at first glance

Which ever way I look at it, the ecconomics of electric just don't add up.

They definitely don't for me either, and on economic grounds I cannot justify the purchase.

But I have the money, so it would be a charitable environmental measure. However that doesn't mean I'm just going to pay any price, I want it to be at a level that makes sense to at least some people.

At present the certain discounted price plus mains installation costs adds up to about £20,000, unreasonably too much for a small hatchback with severe limitations.

We all know the most obvious limitations such as short range and high replacement battery cost, but there are little known ones too. For example:

No towbar can be fitted and it must not be used for towing even a small trailer.

It must never be towed, since this would damage the drive system.

Due to the battery size space it has no spare wheel of any sort, which means a breakdown call for any puncture.

It weighs almost two tons, so not easy to push out of the way after an emergency stop situation. That weight also subtracts from some of it's environmental benefits.

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We all know the most obvious limitations such as short range and high replacement battery cost, but there are little known ones too. For example:

 

No towbar can be fitted and it must not be used for towing even a small trailer.

 

It must never be towed, since this would damage the drive system.

 

Due to the battery size space it has no spare wheel of any sort, which means a breakdown call for any puncture.

 

It weighs almost two tons, so not easy to push out of the way after an emergency stop situation. That weight also subtracts from some of it's environmental benefits.

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I hadn't thought of those limitations, so that makes the car even more unattractive. Does the lack of spare wheel and inability to be towed affect insurance or breakdown scheme membership?

You mentioned the environment. If we apply the, "what if we all did that" test to electric cars, the national grid would probably collapse. Wires between pylons would be glowing dull orange! I suppose the number of KWh of petrol and Diesel that we burn in our vehicles would need to come from the power stations instead (Coal, gas, nuclear, windmills, solar etc). So still an impact on the environment from increased fossil fuel burn, blighted landscapes strewn with decapitated owls from the windmills, fields covered in solar panels and increased nuclear waste.

Until electric cars make greater economic and environmental sense, I think they are doomed to failure and will never sell in any meaningful quantities. By the time this happens, Dave and George's Chinese electricity should be flowing into our homes and God help us all then.

I hadn't thought of those limitations, so that makes the car even more unattractive. Does the lack of spare wheel and inability to be towed affect insurance or breakdown scheme membership?

That I don't know, but it seems likely that there would either be restrictions on the standard benefits or a surcharge.

The one bright spot is that in year one, Nissan give free pickups and return to home for anyone accidentally running out of juice. Obviously that's to offset range objections and nervousness.

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Until electric cars make greater economic and environmental sense, ...

I think that they do already for some people.

What if all those who need a car which fits into an electric cars limitations switched now. That would clean up a lot of our cities for one (yes Paris I am looking at you!).

What if we rethought car ownership as many on this forum have probably done.

When I lived in the city I went that route - set up a spreadsheet with all the numbers and talked it through. Our family car was parked in front of the house all week only being used on weekends. It was a very comfortable Citroen XM with loads of space for three kids and luggage etc. Sold it for scrap, it was end of life and bought a Smart. Family of 4+1 and a two seater are you nuts? Nope when we needed a bigger car we rented one. Depending on what we needed it for and the number of passengers a bigger or a smaller model. The savings over a year were not huge (about 1500€) but we always had the right vehicle for the occasion including taking the grandmother on vacation along with the kids. We used to go to the beach by train and laughed all the way home at the people stuck in the Sunday evening beach jam on the four lane highway to the coast.

If we time shifted to now I wouldn't have thought twice about buying a couple of Danish electric trikes for transporting the kids to sport or moving shopping, the things we used the Smart for. The city was Nantes which is one of Europe's new cycling capitals and which also has a tramway and very extensive public transport. An electric Smart would work there.

That £11640 price, by comparison, does seem to be very low, so maybe a mistake or ploy to generate a face to face enquiry. My colleague paid more than that for a 12 month old Leaf.

I have followed this through anonymously for the Leicester dealer and found to my surprise the offer is genuine. Here's the details:

New Leaf Visia Flex 5dr Auto

£20,790

Metallic - Universal Silver

£550

Additional options

£0

Total RRP

£21,340

-----------------------------------

Cash Offer

£11,640

£9,700 off

45.5% saving

----------------------------------

Finance Offer

£13,440

£7,900 off

37.0% saving

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They certainly seem desperate to shift them, probably to keep the production line going rather than risk it having to shut down.

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I have followed this through anonymously for the Leicester dealer and found to my surprise the offer is genuine. Here's the details:

 

New Leaf Visia Flex 5dr Auto

£20,790

Metallic - Universal Silver

£550

Additional options

£0

Total RRP

£21,340

-----------------------------------

Cash Offer

 

£11,640

 

£9,700 off

 

45.5% saving

----------------------------------

 

Finance Offer

 

£13,440

 

£7,900 off

 

37.0% saving

---------------------------------

 

They certainly seem desperate to shift them, probably to keep the production line going rather than risk it having to shut down.

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I think that the huge discount speaks volumes about electric cars. I really want to like them and to be inspired to buy one, but I can't. However I look at it, their limitations need to be reflected in the purchase price and as I said before, in my circumstances, that would be about £5000.

They clearly suit some people's lifestyle, such as anotherkiwi's, but a present day electric car wouldn't fit in with my life and I suspect the majority of others too. anotherkiwi is probably right, a re-think in the way we live is needed.