"Brompton weighs in on better battery laws to clamp down on eBike fires "

[portals]

Never seen anything like that. He won't be with us long. If he was your window cleaner, I'd advise you start already looking for another one.

He retired about 5 yrs ago after doing this his entire working life....! He's probably minted, I remember paying £40 for 20mins effort last time he came....danger money he said ;-)

 

[Tony1951]

He retired about 5 yrs ago after doing this his entire working life....! He's probably minted, I remember paying £40 for 20mins effort last time he came....danger money he said ;-)

People who take risks like that REALLY can't afford to have an 'off day' can they? One moment's lapse and he's gone or paralysed and smashed to bits.

 

[WheezyRider]

Knee Jerk reaction I agree but on reflection. Unless we have very clever chargers (think PD usb c) then same sockets/plugs across multiple voltages is asking for trouble, isn't it ? I'm on Facebook groups about ebikes and battery building.

It. Is. Terrifying

This forum is like being in university by comparison.

The problem is the BMS, not the charger. They are not good enough. They should block charging voltages or currents that are too high and they should be able to withstand transient spikes from motors. Unfortunately, corners are cut and most battery BMS systems are not really up to the job. It doesn't need smart coms etc, just proper implementation of basic electronics.

 

[saneagle]

Is there an exemption for my window cleaner..??

The first time I went to the Isle of Man TT week, a guy climbed the clock tower on Douglas promenade. It was an old 4-faced Victorian one with curly wrought iron decoration. The guy was extremely skilled in his climbing technique in the way he manipulated his body to climb the tower, which was about 25ft tall.

After sitting ay the top for a bit, he decided to come back down, but he was a bit hampered by his jacket. He managed to remove the jacket, and while holding on to the wrought iron with one hand, he threw his jacket down to the ground. Unfortunately, the jerk from the throw, broke a piece of the rusty wrought iron off, and down he went to fall head first onto the concrete below. Obviously, he didn't survive.

This is it:

 

[soundwave]

fkn wire and im still not dead

 

[AntonyC]

Standardise charging protocol, plugs and sockets, is a good idea.

I disagree. Battery fires have raised issues you can view as:

• Future: a need for improved technologies, safety standards and regulation.
• Past: a legacy situation of battery fires occurring and posing a risk to life.
• Present: a scramble to impose fixes and an opportunity to distort the market.

Obviously the losses these fires incur now are mainly through them occurring indoors. This is where an immediate impact could be achieved yet the education campaign seems low key and other actions aren't in evidence.

As WheezyRider says (in effect) if a BMS works properly mischarging can't cause a problem, and as part of the battery a BMS's protection is permanent. While BMSs are inadequate regulating chargers is misguided and when they're adequate it's counter-productive.

And Grin Technologies think that as fires go cell defects and external factors far outweigh BMS issues.

 

[saneagle]

And Grin Technologies think that as fires go cell defects and external factors far outweigh BMS issues.

I agree with that. Most normal batteries have properly functioning BMSs.

Everybody is trying to solve a problem without any data. We have no idea what caused any of the fires we've seen and discussed. They all look like very dodgy installations, and we have no hard facts about what sort of creative ideas the users invented on how to abuse their batteries.

 

[Scorpio]

Nothing . If anything comes of it, it will just be more garbage legislation and will be ignored by the people who cause the real problems in society.

It's a pattern that's been happening for decades.

Mobs of protesters were causing chaos in cities. New laws were created so police can disperse any group of 2 or more people - laws have been used to break up peaceful meetings but are rarely used when there's a mob on the streets. Police were using the new laws to move on groups of teenagers at out local shopping center - kids were normally having fun but not causing a problem.
New laws = the public suffer with no effect on the actual criminals.

Knife crime is increasing (criminals are breaking the law and using knives to do it) = knife laws introduced when buying knives. The changes affect normal law-abiding public, the criminals ignore the new laws the way they ignored the originals.

Criminals were shooting people with guns, new laws (including registration in Scotland for all airguns including low powered kids guns) make it more difficult for the public to own legal guns - criminals continue to use illegal guns while breaking the law (ie shooting people !)

A lot of the new laws are knee-jerk reactions to show "we listened and we did something" but don't actually help the situation.

Most ridiculous it that it's illegal to use mobile phones in petrol stations as "They might cause an explosion" but some petrol stations also have signs up "Use our App on your phone to pay for your fuel". Mythbusters TV showed that it was impossible to cause an explosion using a mobile phone.
This all started with an urban myth that phones could cause explosions, the new laws were never needed...

 

[Tony1951]

It's a pattern that's been happening for decades.

Mobs of protesters were causing chaos in cities. New laws were created so police can disperse any group of 2 or more people - laws have been used to break up peaceful meetings but are rarely used when there's a mob on the streets. Police were using the new laws to move on groups of teenagers at out local shopping center - kids were normally having fun but not causing a problem.
New laws = the public suffer with no effect on the actual criminals.

Knife crime is increasing (criminals are breaking the law and using knives to do it) = knife laws introduced when buying knives. The changes affect normal law-abiding public, the criminals ignore the new laws the way they ignored the originals.

Criminals were shooting people with guns, new laws (including registration in Scotland for all airguns including low powered kids guns) make it more difficult for the public to own legal guns - criminals continue to use illegal guns while breaking the law (ie shooting people !)

A lot of the new laws are knee-jerk reactions to show "we listened and we did something" but don't actually help the situation.

Most ridiculous it that it's illegal to use mobile phones in petrol stations as "They might cause an explosion" but some petrol stations also have signs up "Use our App on your phone to pay for your fuel". Mythbusters TV showed that it was impossible to cause an explosion using a mobile phone.
This all started with an urban myth that phones could cause explosions, the new laws were never needed...

Well said. Law abiding people take notice of regulations. Villains don't. I remember in 2010 when a Labour Home Secretary, Alan Johnson, was proposing to make it illegal to own a dog unless you had third party insurance, microchipped it, and if I am not mistaken, he was talking about owners having to attend a course in civilised dog keeping. The problem he was trying to solve, pertained to thugs and criminals using savage, monster dog types to intimidate people in London parks.

Like all such legislation, the people he was aiming to control, were a tiny minority of the population who behave like outlaws. Of course as always, these are the very people who will ignore the regulations. Their behaviour was already illegal, but more law affecting everyone else seemed to him the obvious solution....

 

[lenny]

"A heavily pregnant mum and her family have been left homeless after their house was destroyed in a fire started by an electronic bike charger. "

Pregnant mum and family left homeless after house destroyed in e-bike fire

Kelly Bottomley's four-bedroom council semi went up in flames after the e-bike set on fire while it was charging. The family have been forced to 'jump from hotel to hotel' ever since

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[Tony1951]

Shock news!

Lots of people have had fires in their homes started by cigarettes, chip pans, and shoddy electrical installations.

Mad legislator Victor Collywobbles to propose a bill in Parliament imposing a ban on chip pans and incandescent bulbs. These he claims have caused fires and have killed people. He deferred proposing a ban on cigarette smoking indoors on the grounds that most smokers are dying anyway from their habit.

" We can no longer allow ' fire'," screeched Alice Blowhard of the Anti fire society. "It is just too dangerous, and those who meddle with must must feel the full weight of the law."

 

[saneagle]

Shock news!

Lots of people have had fires in their homes started by cigarettes, chip pans, and shoddy electrical installations.

Mad legislator Victor Collywobbles to propose a bill in Parliament imposing a ban on chip pans and incandescent bulbs. These he claims have caused fires and have killed people. He deferred proposing a ban on cigarette smoking indoors on the grounds that most smokers are dying anyway from their habit.

" We can no longer allow ' fire'," screeched Alice Blowhard of the Anti fire society. "It is just too dangerous, and those who meddle with must must feel the full weight of the law."

I agree with your sentiments. The way I see it is that humanity has been dealing with fire since the stone ages. Most people understand how normal fires start and spread, but when they deal with ebike batteries or similar lithium batteries, they have no frame of reference. All they see is a black box that looks pretty inert and harmless.

From time to time, lithium batteries catch fire. They're virtually impossible to put out, and they can do a lot of damage when the flaring flames set light to other stuff. The toxic fumes and exploding cells make it difficult to even approach the burning battery, so it can't be moved to a safer location.

The one thing missing is the hard evidence of what causes the batteries to ignite. I've built several batteries myself and I can see how easy it is to get a short circuit inside. All it takes is a welded strip running over the edge of an adjacent cell that's at a different voltage. All you'd have is the thin heatshrink covering of each cell between a working ebike and your house burning down. That heartshrink is easily cut by the sharp edges of the welded strips and plates. In that case, you have to plan very carefully the positioning of the welded strips/plates. The same applies to the sense wires that run from the ends of the cells to the BMS. They might look nice and neat, but when the bike goes down a bumpy road, the thin insulation would soon wear through if they were in the wrong position. 10 years ago, I used to see batteries with these sort of issues, but not anymore.

I suspect that what happens after the fire is that investigators try to establish exactly which battery was involved, then they find one of the same type and send it to some standards testing lab to analyse it. If the charger doesn't meet the EC standards or they see anything untoward in the battery, they order a recall or seizure. Their clever people with creative minds analyse what they are given and invent potential risks and potential solutions. Probably, some of those guys are jobsworths and others just want to look clever, so they propose all sort of unnecessary ideas that would mitigate their imagined risks.

 

[Tony1951]

I agree with your sentiments. The way I see it is that humanity has been dealing with fire since the stone ages. Most people understand how normal fires start and spread, but when they deal with ebike batteries or similar lithium batteries, they have no frame of reference. All they see is a black box that looks pretty inert and harmless.

From time to time, lithium batteries catch fire. They're virtually impossible to put out, and they can do a lot of damage when the flaring flames set light to other stuff. The toxic fumes and exploding cells make it difficult to even approach the burning battery, so it can't be moved to a safer location.

The one thing missing is the hard evidence of what causes the batteries to ignite. I've built several batteries myself and I can see how easy it is to get a short circuit inside. All it takes is a welded strip running over the edge of an adjacent cell that's at a different voltage. All you'd have is the thin heatshrink covering of each cell between a working ebike and your house burning down. That heartstrings is easily cut by the sharp edges of the welded strips and plates. In that case, you have to plan very carefully the positioning of the welded strips/plates. The same applies to the sense wires that run from the ends of the cells to the BMS. They might look nice and neat, but when the bike goes down a bumpy road, the thin insulation would soon wear through if they were in the wrong position. 10 years ago, I used to see batteries with these sort of issues, but not anymore.

I suspect that what happens after the fire is that the investigators try to establish exactly which battery was involved, then they find one of the same type and send it to some standards testing lab to analyse it. If the charger doesn't meet the EC standards or they see anything untoward in the battery, they order a recall or seizure. Their clever people with creative minds analyse what they are given and invent potential risks and potential solutions. Probably, some of those guys are jobsworths and others just want to look clever, so they propose all sort of ideas that would mitigate their imagined risks.

All true of course. I think it would be better if there were some bigger, rectangular cells like the ones used in car batteries, which could be bolted to their bus bars with nuts. You would not need to weld them together in groups of half a dozen. It would be a far safer arrangement than what we have with your well described potential for dangerous failures.

The other thing though about the general public and legislators predilection for infantilizing them and making rules to protect them. I'm very much against that. When I was about five or six, my mother born in 1921, taught me how to light the coal fire we had in our living room, and I used to do it afterwards as and when she told me to. She showed me all kinds of dangerous stuff, like the rather shabby electrical system we had then, domestos in the cupboard, and I knew full well before I was five that there were all kinds of dangerous things that might kill me if I were a fool. That seems to be gone nowadays. Adults blame everybody but themselves when they do something stupid. Hence the warnings on kettles and toasters about hot water being dangerous and not putting your fingers into the toaster.....

 

[sjpt]

Hence the warnings on kettles and toasters about hot water being dangerous and not putting your fingers into the toaster.....

Why didn't anyone warn me I shouldn't put hot water in the toaster?

 

[flecc]

The one thing missing is the hard evidence of what causes the batteries to ignite.

10 years ago, I used to see batteries with these sort of issues, but not anymore.

I suspect the main cause is still the cylindrical cells. You'll remember long ago when laptop fires became commonplace and the main manufacturers held their hands up, inadequate manufacturing quality control as the cause. There's indications that this is still a problem.

Some while ago Tesla lost patience with the major cell makers inability to produce larger size cells in sufficient quantity so they decided to increasingly pull their manufacture in-house in new dedicated plants But they have hit exactly the same problems in trying to bulk produce 21700 and 4680 cells, to the extent that their two most popular car models, the Model 3 and Model Y are being sent out with Tesla's old form of multi-cell battery, some 7200 x 18640 cells, which quantity obviously greatly increases the odds on a faulty cell being among them.

Panasonic have now set up a 4680 production line in Japan, presumably hoping to succeed and secure Tesla's lucrative purchasing, but that remains to be seen. Nissan meanwhile have stuck to much smaller quantities of prismatic cells for their new Ariya model, albeit with liquid cooling and CCS charging instead of CHAdeMO.
.

 

[Tony1951]

Why didn't anyone warn me I shouldn't put hot water in the toaster?

Yes - it is very easily done. They don't even have a door on top of the toaster slot to stop you.

 

[Woosh]

I suspect the main cause is still the cylindrical cells. You'll remember long ago when laptop fires became commonplace and the main manufacturers held their hands up, inadequate manufacturing quality control as the cause. There's indications that this is still a problem.

Some while ago Tesla lost patience with the major cell makers inability to produce larger size cells in sufficient quantity so they decided to increasingly pull their manufacture in-house in new dedicated plants But they have hit exactly the same problems in trying to bulk produce 21700 and 4680 cells, to the extent that their two most popular car models, the Model 3 and Model Y are being sent out with Tesla's old form of multi-cell battery, some 7200 x 18640 cells, which quantity obviously greatly increases the odds on a faulty cell being among them.

Panasonic have now set up a 4680 production line in Japan, presumably hoping to succeed and secure Tesla's lucrative purchasing, but that remains to be seen. Nissan meanwhile have stuck to much smaller quantities of prismatic cells for their new Ariya model, albeit with liquid cooling and CCS charging instead of CHAdeMO.
.

the current best cells for EVs is CATL Shenxing LPF cells.
They have already been used in Chinese EVs.
370 miles in 10 minutes. No battery loss in freezing temperature and easily beat Lithium ion cells on energy density and cheaper than before. They achieve these feats by precisely placing orientating the nanoparticles that form the cathode.
CATL Unveiled the Shenxing Plus, World's First LFP Cell With 4C Ultra-Fast-Charging Tech - autoevolution

 

[saneagle]

the current best cells for EVs is CATL Shenxing LPF cells.
They have already been used in Chinese EVs.
370 miles in 10 minutes. No battery loss in freezing temperature and easily beat Lithium ion cells on energy density and cheaper than before. They achieve these feats by precisely placing orientating the nanoparticles that form the cathode.
CATL Unveiled the Shenxing Plus, World's First LFP Cell With 4C Ultra-Fast-Charging Tech - autoevolution

If they were that good, we'd all be using them. Until now, LFP is too heavy for ebikes.

 

[flecc]

the current best cells for EVs is CATL Shenxing LPF cells.
They have already been used in Chinese EVs.
370 miles in 10 minutes. No battery loss in freezing temperature and easily beat Lithium ion cells on energy density and cheaper than before. They achieve these feats by precisely placing orientating the nanoparticles that form the cathode.
CATL Unveiled the Shenxing Plus, World's First LFP Cell With 4C Ultra-Fast-Charging Tech - autoevolution

Yes, I'm quite sure we will be seeing many more changes yet.

But given the current climate and the huge problems Lithium fires are causing, there's much to be said for Nissan's cautious very safe approach meanwhile. It would take just one traction battery fire to destroy their 14 year perfect record.
.

 

[saneagle]

Yes, I'm quite sure we will be seeing many more changes yet.

But given the current climate and the huge problems Lithium fires are causing, there's much to be said for Nissan's cautious very safe approach meanwhile. It would take just one traction battery fire to destroy their 14 year perfect record.
.

What perfect record? There was this one at Nissan HQ, the one in Texas and 4 in Ukraine.

TN Firefighters Use 45,000 Gallons of Water on Leaf EV Fire at Nissan HQ; Overheated on Charger - FirefighterNation: Fire Rescue - Firefighting News and Community

A Nissan Leaf caught fire Tuesday at the company's North American headquarters at 1 Nissan Way in Franklin, TN.

www.firefighternation.com