Brexit, for once some facts.

Danidl

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Sep 29, 2016
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Doesn't even need a comment from me.

This one might

What about a happy medium... Omni Res in moderatio.
I never replied to one of your messages where you indicated that the wealthy are now being taxed more than they were in the 1970s... There is a very simple reason. The ratio between the top earners and the median income has ballooned over the last 40 years.. There has not been a fair divide of the automation dividend.

One view... The conservative one is why should there be ... We put in the risk we deserve the reward. But that presupposes the the risks are equivalent.. how do you equate the risk of a truck driver bringing a 30 ton lorry thousands of miles a week and the person putting money into an investment?
The other view we need money to live and have a home life. If I get ill can I be assured of reasonable and competent care?
 
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Steb

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And here we part company i'm afraid as no matter who is in power this countries days of "going it alone" are long gone.
The purpose of my proposing a coalition is to bring that point home with full force.
Corbyn's view of Socialism is that of a Parish Councillor, and that is what this country will become, as powerful as a Parish in a Shire.

It is beyond the capability of this country to be other than a second rate nation outside the EU no matter who is running it.
Our present situation is the proof of that, a crisis created by it's own Government.
But as the Conservative government inexorably collapses (the scandals getting fruitier and ever closer to core conservative values like tax avoidance, abuse of power etc) Corbyn becomes a very likely successor and my hunch is that he will diplomatically lead the increasingly disillusioned brexit sheep back into an eu fold with some conditions regarding workers rights that I agree with and I think macron et al won't like and need to be challenged with
 
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oldgroaner

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But as the Conservative government inexorably collapses (the scandals getting fruitier ever closer to core conservative values like tax avoidance etc) Corbyn becomes a very likely successor and my hunch is that he will diplomatically lead the increasingly disillusioned brexit sheep back into an eu fold with some conditions regarding workers rights that I agree with and I think macron et al won't like and need to be challenged with
I sincerely hope you are right, that's all it is, Hope.
Brexiteers thrive on that, I would prefer some more concrete evidence of intent.
"Hell no, we won't go!" from the Vietnam War protesters comes to mind.
 
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Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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I sincerely hope you are right, that's all it is, Hope.
Brexiteers thrive on that, I would prefer some more concrete evidence of intent.
"Hell no, we won't go!" from the Vietnam War protesters comes to mind.
And assuming Corbyn takes over you really think it will be the land of milk and honey under him ?? Yes, the conservatives seem immoral, probably corrupt to the core...but exactly what can Corbyn do...especially with the fools around him ? I agree he seems the most sincere of the lot of them...that doesn't qualify anyone to run a country..and BTW he,ll probably still leave EU ?? Trouble is nobody knows what he stands for, well apart from giving students cash he does not have...
Country needs another leader...if ( if) May collapses...and I,m sure her popularity has just soared..Piers Morgan has attacked her !
 
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PeterL

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Aug 19, 2017
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How odd that this situation went unchecked over all the years of conservative rule until after we had to bail out the bankers.
Previously they were more than happy to pay out benefits to keep the natives they had rendered unemployed with Thatcher's de industrialisation policy passive.
After all it came out of the public purse, not their pockets, did it, but then the bankers ballsed everything up, didn't they?

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
Again, you have a point, but, it's a wee bit out. I assume that MT is at the root of this and you're right she did bring about unemployment and use the proceeds of the City to 'bridge to gap'. I personally think she was right, we couldn't continue to prop up loss-making factories making inferior products. I also think that the Socialist Governments of TB and GB then took it a whole stage further and effectively broke the bank.

We're in a mess that's for sure but with some stability I see a way out. It needs more than a bit of ambition and indeed faith which seems to be in short supply on here.
 

Steb

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And assuming Corbyn takes over you really think it will be the land of milk and honey under him ?? Yes, the conservatives seem immoral, probably corrupt to the core...but exactly what can Corbyn do...especially with the fools around him ? I agree he seems the most sincere of the lot of them...that doesn't qualify anyone to run a country..and BTW he,ll probably still leave EU ?? Trouble is nobody knows what he stands for, well apart from giving students cash he does not have...
Country needs another leader...if ( if) May collapses...and I,m sure her popularity has just soared..Piers Morgan has attacked her !
I like Diane whatsisname, Corbyn's posturing career politician ex and all the other hangers on in labour as little as anyone else. But government will always be incompetent, corrupt. That would be welcome respite from the current rabid nefarious psychopaths like trump or may
 
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Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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Steb / Flecc
If I were picking an uncle for my grand kids , yes Corbyn would be top of list but let me ask you this, and be honest...If you had a business to run and you were taken ill would you chose May or Corbyn
to run it for you in your absence ?

I had a good read of Labour's GE manifesto, policy document before last election. Honestly it's plain barmy. He really will bankrupt country but not sure he,ll actually get chance even if May collapses, door is open for a Blair like mp to step up to mark. Country is waiting for it. ( Had Blair not been the lying turd he is he could have done it )
And Campbell is waiting in wings to support who ever. ( He,s said anyone except Corbyn and Blair tho, but he didn't rule out supporting another party, proving most of them will do anything to get into power)
We should get Haigue, Portilo and both Millibands to form a coalition. I,d vote for those four.
 
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flecc

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I had a good read of Labour's GE manifesto, policy document before last election. Honestly it's plain barmy. He really will bankrupt country
The same would have been said of Clement Attlee's plans, and he certainly wasn't elected on the strength of them. He only won through the public's anger giving the Tories a kicking.

But Clement and his far left team didn't bankrupt the country, they belatedly turned it into one fit for the 20th century with improvements that no-one today would get rid of.

Don't underestimate Jeremy. Theresa May did that and it led her to hold a general election confident of greatly increasing her majority. But all she achieved was to lose her majority and make Jeremy widely popular in the country, silencing his critics in the parliamentary party.
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Zlatan

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The same would have been said of Clement Attlee's plans, and he certainly wasn't elected on the strength of them. He only won through the public's anger giving the Tories a kicking.

But Clement and his far left team didn't bankrupt the country, they belatedly turned it into one fit for the 20th century with improvements that no-one today would get rid of.

Don't underestimate Jeremy. Theresa May did that and it led her to hold a general election confident of greatly increasing her majority. But all she achieved was to lose her majority and make Jeremy widely popular in the country, silencing his critics in the parliamentary party.
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Yes but the trouble is now all Corbyn,s ideas for raising the money he needs have been attempted before and actually had the reverse affect. His plans to increase business tax just as businesses are facing Brexit ( ???) would at best be problematic. His policy of dropping threshold for high tax payers ( I think from £125k to £80k) simply pushes higher earners either abroad or into more tax avoidance schemes. ( Clegg/ Cameron attempted similar and tax revenue reduced)
Raising taxes to raise tax revenue can be counter productive...and even more so when Corbyn has made numerous promises to hand out cash. It really isn't that simple ..and there is a strong argument Attlee set in motion the great decline in UK industry we witnessed after his office. The rest of Europe were busy investing in factories ( Eg Volkswagen, Citroen etc) we were busy investing in NHS and housing..great in short term but look 20 tears down line and the factories were paying for the houses..
Yes,we,d all love a socialist utopia but unfortunately ( IMHO) its just too idealistic. Stuff needs paying for..we,ve got to invest in profitable projects...Can Labour do that...???
We,ve just witnessed what's going on in tax collection would Corbyn have clout to tackle that, increase tax burden further, find a,way of making sure that raises revenue and all the while sticking to his promises..I doubt it somehow, especially given his cronies abilities. ( Diane Abbot?)
Given all the financial problems UK will be facing middle England will simply not risk a socialist government...perhaps a new New Labour but never a left of left Corbynite government. I just cant see it happening...and if it did we,ll be back to boom and bust.
Corbyn will need to reduce Corporation tax to attract foreign investment. Would he dare ? He,d need to leave upper tax threshold as it is to keep high earners here. His scruples would not let him.
 
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anotherkiwi

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You only need to increase the tax burden of the top 10% to bring some balance back to taxation. But as they don't earn wages they are very complicated people to tax.
 
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PeterL

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Aug 19, 2017
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This is an interesting read - not just the Headlines please!

The Germans are making contingency plans for the collapse of Europe. Let’s hope we are, too

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The German defence ministry set out its worst-case scenario for the year 2040 in a secret document that was leaked to Der Spiegel last week: “EU enlargement has been largely abandoned, and more states have left the community … the increasingly disorderly, sometimes chaotic and conflict-prone, world has dramatically changed the security environment.”

The 120-page-long paper, entitled Strategic Perspective 2040, is a federal government policy document – and the scenarios it imagines are grimly realistic: an east-west conflict in which some EU states join the Russian side or a “multipolar” Europe, where some states adopt the Russian economic and political model in defiance of the Lisbon treaty.

That the document exists at all is a sign of the increased tension in the global system. The German military’s tradition of rigorous logistical planning for every eventuality began with the celebrated German field marshal Moltke in the 1850s and has three times paid off with initial success: in 1871 against France, in 1914 and 1939 against the rest of Europe. In the post-cold war era, as Der Spiegel puts it, allowing German generals to make statements about the future was “too risky”. That changed with Russia’s annexation of Crimea in 2014.

Despite the alarmist headlines it has generated, the leaked document is, if anything, overoptimistic. In three out of the six scenarios, things go so well that Europe resembles the Biedermeier era – 1815-1848 – of domestic bliss and military boredom. Its negative scenarios – which see the US struggling to avoid isolationism and China locked in a cultural war with the west – were written before Donald Trump came to power and before Xi Jinping’s strategy of creating a politicised Chinese infrastructure across Asia.

Brexit Should Be Prevented, German Government Advisers Say
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The U.K.’s exit from the European Union should be prevented due to the “far-reaching impact” Brexit would have, Germany’s Council of Economic Experts, which advises Chancellor Angela Merkel, said Wednesday.

If Britain does leave the bloc, an agreement is needed that would minimize the damage for both sides, the council said in its annual report. With talks likely to drag on longer than the two years envisaged by EU rules, a one-time extension period should be granted, the experts said.

“Due to the wide-ranging impact of a U.K. exit from the EU, the council continues to urge that it be prevented,” the council said. “The economic cost of Brexit will hit the U.K. significantly harder than the rest of the EU.”

EU President Donald Tusk last month revived the notion Britain could remain a member of the bloc, saying the outcome was entirely in the hands of the British government. Germany and France have indicated the U.K. would be welcomed back if it decided to reverse the Brexit process. In order to do so, Britain would likely have to hold another referendum or elect a government led by a party that campaigned on a promise to stay in the EU.

The European Union will begin talks Wednesday on what the 27 countries want from a Brexit transition deal, seeking a united stance they can present to the U.K. once talks break out of the current deadlock. Both sides are hoping that talks on trade and the transition can move ahead after an EU summit in mid-December.

“There is still a risk of an uncontrolled exit and sudden adjustment reactions by economic agents,” the German government advisers said. “Conversely, the possibility of the U.K. staying in the EU can’t be completely excluded.” The council’s comments on Brexit made up about two pages of the more than 400-page report, which includes a detailed assessment of global economic conditions.

The advisers also urged the European Central Bank to end its bond-buying program earlier than planned and consider raising interest rates. They said that risks to financial market stability have increased even in the absence of deflationary threats in the 19-nation euro area.

“On the one hand there’s a risk of excessive asset prices, especially in the residential real estate and bond sectors, and on the other hand, the interest-rate change risk at banks has increased significantly,” the council said. “The ECB should therefore urgently communicate a comprehensive strategy for the normalization of its monetary policy.”
 

PeterL

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Aug 19, 2017
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You only need to increase the tax burden of the top 10% to bring some balance back to taxation. But as they don't earn wages they are very complicated people to tax.
How much would that generate, assuming it were possible? And, what would you do with it?
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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there is a strong argument Attlee set in motion the great decline in UK industry we witnessed after his office.
That's a completely false argument. The great decline was entirely due to the attitudes of British management. We had the facilities, the factories were retooled after the wartime production ceased, but the management still thought doing what grand dad did was good enough and returned to what they were doing in the 1930s. In the motor trade I remember only too well my anger and frustration at this when first the Italians and Germans and then the Japanese continued their design advances while we stood still or went backwards. Even those benefitting from war reparations gifting them the best German designs failed to capitalise on that. Some even spoilt the designs!

My boss was one of those backward looking managers and we had some huge arguments on the subject then. He live long enough to see how right I was back then in the 1950s.
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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You only need to increase the tax burden of the top 10% to bring some balance back to taxation. But as they don't earn wages they are very complicated people to tax.
Vladimir Putin seems to manage it, he deducts 50% of all wealth from those willing to agree, 100% from those unwilling.

People find him very persuasive.
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Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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You only need to increase the tax burden of the top 10% to bring some balance back to taxation. But as they don't earn wages they are very complicated people to tax.
But that very policy reduced revenue. Top earners move abroad, pay clever accountants, invest offshore and find ways around high tax levels. The extra tax revenue available ( obviously it can be increased) would never pay for stuff Corbyn expects. Look at his manifesto. If it were so was so easy why has this government not done so ? The earners you are targetting are well under the type we see in government ( The Ashcrofts etc)
The middle earners are the voters, thats exactly why Corbyn will never get in ( or if he does not last long)
Raising tax to raise revenue does not produce anywhere near the results expected. That is proven. And if not done carefully can and will produce recession.
 
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anotherkiwi

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Jan 26, 2015
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How much would that generate, assuming it were possible? And, what would you do with it?
It isn't for me so I wouldn't do much. Your government could inject a bit into your health service, reduce tuition fees for students, build energy efficient comfortable social housing, make the UK a global hub for renewable energy with tons of well paid jobs... I don't know that kind of stuff
 
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