Woosh or Raleigh?

[steve2k]

So I'm torn between the Whoosh Camino and the Raleigh Motus and looking for opinions or alternatives.

I'm 110kg, 5'8 and I'm looking for a bike to commute on so it needs to be able to carry me and probably 10kg of luggage.

My budget is £1500.

My route to work is either 8 miles of rolling tarmac hills or 4 miles of tarmac hills followed by 2 miles of hilly forest track.

So I think the Whoosh big bear is out as I worry about the front hub motor on the forest track (gravel, mud, tree roots).

The Whoosh camino has a rear hub, the Raleigh has a crank drive. I think I prefer the idea of crank drive (I have the impression it's better for a fat bloke on a hill), but Whoosh have been great at answering questions and offering advice.

I can't test drive the woosh as I cant get to the store. I could probably text the Raleigh but I have nothing to compare it to.

In all honesty I'm sure either of them will be fine but as I don't really know what I'm doing I thought I'd ask for opinions.

Feel free to chip in.

 

[Woosh]

At least woosh carry plenty of spare spokes, as do Rose, but I suspect the difference is Rose rarely supply any.

yes, I do but I don't sell more than a few a month.
Spoke breaking is much rarer now since the wheels are built and balanced by computer, about 5 years ago.
Anyway, I contacted Shuz Tung last year, enquiring about buying their kit for use in Southend.

 

[RobF]

yes, I do but I don't sell more than a few a month.
Spoke breaking is much rarer now since the wheels are built and balanced by computer, about 5 years ago.
Anyway, I contacted Shuz Tung last year, enquiring about buying their kit for use in Southend.

Agree, nothing wrong with modern computer controlled assembly, and much to commend it.

The computer probably does a better job than all but the most expert wheel builders.

There remains a question mark for me over the quality of components used in Chinese motor wheels.

That could only be fully answered if I bought one and tested its reliability through use.

 

[Woosh]

that could only be fully answered if I bought one and tested its reliability through use.

The vast majority (more than 90%) would never see a broken spoke.
Among those who bought replacement spokes, you'd need to ride about 2,000 miles on average before you break a spoke on a rear motor wheel. Twice that on a front motor wheel. That could take some time.
One simple way to protect your spokes is to keep your tyres correctly inflated. We inflate to 45 psi on our 2.0" wide tyres, 60 psi on 28-622 tyres.

 

[Deus]

One broken rear spoke after 3k miles on my brothers Rio which i think is very acceptable the replacement was bought very cheaply and delivered super fast from Whoosh, you can not fault Whoosh for their after sales service.

 

[Michael Price]

Can't say anything about Whoosh as I have no experience of them

But I bought a Raleigh Array last year which had a design problem with the charger
Raleigh were wonderful - liaised with the LBS and ended up swapping the Array for a Motus (see - you knew it would get relevant) - 2019 version in November to sort the problem

So - one big vote for Raleigh customer service

SO now I have a basic Motus - middrive Bosch with the 300 battery - 8Ah
WHich is just amazing!!!

and this is based on using ebikes for over 10 years - previous one was a Powercycle with 11 Ah battery and rear hub drive - Bosch drive is massively superior to the old Powercycle and the MUCH newer Suntour hub drive on the Array

and the range is way superior to the old bike - in spite of having less capacity in the battery - so motor seems to be quite efficient

I have noticed that you can get a 2019 model Motus quite cheap (OK relatively) on the WWW - well worth it in my opinion

only thing I miss from the Array - automatic lights - came on when I started the ebike systems - annoyed me at the start but I realised that having lights is always a good thing - silly money to upgrade now though

 

[RobF]

Can't say anything about Whoosh as I have no experience of them

But I bought a Raleigh Array last year which had a design problem with the charger
Raleigh were wonderful - liaised with the LBS and ended up swapping the Array for a Motus (see - you knew it would get relevant) - 2019 version in November to sort the problem

So - one big vote for Raleigh customer service

SO now I have a basic Motus - middrive Bosch with the 300 battery - 8Ah
WHich is just amazing!!!

and this is based on using ebikes for over 10 years - previous one was a Powercycle with 11 Ah battery and rear hub drive - Bosch drive is massively superior to the old Powercycle and the MUCH newer Suntour hub drive on the Array

and the range is way superior to the old bike - in spite of having less capacity in the battery - so motor seems to be quite efficient

I have noticed that you can get a 2019 model Motus quite cheap (OK relatively) on the WWW - well worth it in my opinion

only thing I miss from the Array - automatic lights - came on when I started the ebike systems - annoyed me at the start but I realised that having lights is always a good thing - silly money to upgrade now though

What you have discovered is the difference between a budget Chinese hub bike and a European designed crank drive.

@Warwick on here made the same journey.

To many new ebikers, the difference in use is unimportant.

All they care about is the bike is easier to pedal and helps them on hills, which both types of bikes do.

But if refinement is a consideration, it's crank drive every time.

Bosch is the most refined and popular, but the likes of Steps, Yamaha and Brose come a close second.

Your experience is also a microcosm of the reliability problems of Chinese hub bikes - typically niggly electrical.

Tempting to say a Bosch charger is a rip off at £80+ when you can get a Chinese one for twenty.

But one works reliably, and the other, well, you know what that does.

 

[Woosh]

What you have discovered is the difference between a budget Chinese hub bike and a European designed crank drive.

both his bikes were made by Raleigh and the second bike (Raleigh Motus) costs more than the first bike (Raleigh Array).

@Warwick on here made the same journey.

Warwick spent more on the next bike compared to the previous one.
He started with a budget of just £300.

The common factor in both case is the increase in their budget.

 

[Woosh]

But if refinement is a consideration, it's crank drive every time.

often the case but not quite.
The main issue with hub bikes vs crank driven bikes is the gyroscopic effect.
When you pedal, the body tends to anticipate the movement of the bike the way of a normal bike would, that is, having very little inertia. When you pedal an e-bike, you feel the weight of the motor and the battery. The more those two weights swing out of the direction of travel, the more you feel it.
A hub motor will have its centre of gravity much further away to the overall centre of gravity (cyclist+bike), giving the CD motor a better feel.
If you reduce the weight of the hub motor and put it to the rear wheel, the effect of its inertia is vastly reduced.
I can assure you that if you ride my Faro (or the Orbea Gain), you will find that hub motors give the same refined feel.

 

[Danidl]

I can't make it out either, if it's a question of torque transmitted through the spokes then it's going to be approximately the same irrespective of whether it's a hub or crank motor.

The difference is that the spokes are longer and therefore more flexible in a non hub motor device. My original ebike, with small wheels and hub was getting to the stage of progressively popping spokes ,until I brought it to the local Halfords. I had to buy a package of Spokes ..a company SJS I think,but Halfords did a fine job.

 

[Woosh]

I can't make it out either, if it's a question of torque transmitted through the spokes then it's going to be approximately the same irrespective of whether it's a hub or crank motor.

it's approximately the same.
When a spoke breaks on a CD bike, it's bad luck, when it happens on a hub motor, it's design issue.

 

[Michael Price]

both his bikes were made by Raleigh and the second bike (Raleigh Motus) costs more than the first bike (Raleigh Array).


Warwick spent more on the next bike compared to the previous one.
He started with a budget of just £300.

The common factor in both case is the increase in their budget.

Not quite true - although both bikes were by Raleigh - the Array was Suntour hub drive - which was great - only problem was a design problem with the charger connection (strange because Halfords use the same setup but witha different connector)
The second bike had a Bosch setup - with crank drive.
Basically only the frame was Raleigh - as far as I know - the rest was assembled from parts made by other companies

But the Bosch stuff is more expensive - and better quality - hence the higher price- although if you get a 'last year's model' Motus from the WWW then they are about the same price as up-to-date Array

 

[RobF]

both his bikes were made by Raleigh and the second bike (Raleigh Motus) costs more than the first bike (Raleigh Array).

Exactly, Raleigh is just a name painted on the down tube.

It's the components and their specification which is important.

Warwick spent more on the next bike compared to the previous one.
He started with a budget of just £300.

He can speak for himself, but he had an £1,100 Oxygen.

The recent availability of crank bikes for £1,500 or less has made the market position more difficult for the likes of Oxygen and your brand.

A grand for a woosh and two grand plus for a crank bike wouldn't even be a question for many buyers because they don't have the higher sum to spend.

An extra few hundred is a very different prospect.

 

[sjpt]

Or a crank bike from Woosh for £1100. I don't know how the specs compare with a low end Motus; the battery is much bigger on the Woosh. I doubt there is much difference in the frame quality. I guess most important is power, reliability and potential repair costs on the motor ... again no idea how these compare.

 

[Woosh]

I doubt there is much difference in the frame quality.

agreed. The wheels are standard, you can get a new set wheels with Mavic rims and DT Swiss spokes for about £125.

I guess most important is power, reliability and potential repair costs on the motor ... again no idea how these compare.

I serviced some time 7 years old crank drive bikes.
my crank drive bikes have throttle, that's the difference.
They are more suitable for older people when climbing hills, they don't have to pedal any harder or at all.
However, I can see that the Rambla built with Bafang MaxDrive motor gives excellent result.

 

[Woosh]

The recent availability of crank bikes for £1,500 or less has made the market position more difficult for the likes of Oxygen and your brand.

not really, I sell directly - so will always have an advantage on price.
My main concern is we appeal to the older customers where they need the throttle.
The Bafang MaxDrive does not have a throttle.
The main cost difference between the various motors is this: $85 between a hub motor and a CD motor, $250 between a hub motor and a Bafang MaxDrive. I use their 100NM motor, it's slightly more expensive than the standard 80NM MaxDrive.
I absorb some of the difference in cost of the Bafang MaxDrive simply because the transport, support and marketing costs are the same for a £899 Faro as for a £1,299 Rambla so for me, the net profit is about same.

 

[Warwick]

My e-bike journey so far has been varied.

I started with a Woosh Sirocco CDL that I bought, almost as new, from eBay. Sorry to say that it basically fell apart under me*. Next I moved on to converting a couple of bikes I already had in my collection with FWD systems. Neither of these were particularly inspiring and I really didn't like the Heath Robinson look of the wiring.

Then an Oxygen eMate came on the market in the classifieds section here. After my previous experiences it was a revelation, BUT I had constant issues with the electrics. It's currently sitting, defunct, in my garage needing a complete new electrical system. If I had the time, inclination and budget, I'd fit a 48V power supply on it and sell it on.

Next, whilst scouring eBay, I found an Ortler Wien and bought it from a chap in That London. As soon as I got on it, I realised what I had been missing in terms of sophistication. Instant feed-in of power and a smooth delivery. I rode the Oxygen once after I bought the Ortler, even though the latter is a slower machine.

I was very happy with the Ortler, but then my current Cube was put on the market on here earlier this year and I quickly snapped it up. It has the Bosch CX Performance drive, compared to the Ortler's Active Line. The battery is also a Powerpack 500, so it has the capacity to make use of the unfettered CX motor. I would not even look at any other drive set up other than a mid-drive machine now. The Cube is very powerful, superbly put together and is everything I was looking for in a bike.

*Woosh seem to have upped their game with their later machines, but my experience of the Sirocco CDL was not good, although the company was helpful.

 

[Woosh]

*Woosh seem to have upped their game with their later machines, but my experience of the Sirocco CDL was not good, although the company was helpful.

thank you warwick.
It's true that the new bikes are better.
The Sirocco CDL was made in 2014. 6 years is a long time.
Back then, it had only the Bosch DU to compare with.
The new woosh Rambla is a world away .
It's just evolution. Bosch went from 2011 with the old classic 50NM drive unit with 288WH battery to the newest 75+NM Gen3 CX in 2019.

 

[Danidl]

My e-bike journey so far has been varied.

I started with a Woosh Sirocco CDL that I bought, almost as new, from eBay. Sorry to say that it basically fell apart under me*. Next I moved on to converting a couple of bikes I already had in my collection with FWD systems. Neither of these were particularly inspiring and I really didn't like the Heath Robinson look of the wiring.

Then an Oxygen eMate came on the market in the classifieds section here. After my previous experiences it was a revelation, BUT I had constant issues with the electrics. It's currently sitting, defunct, in my garage needing a complete new electrical system. If I had the time, inclination and budget, I'd fit a 48V power supply on it and sell it on.

Next, whilst scouring eBay, I found an Ortler Wien and bought it from a chap in That London. As soon as I got on it, I realised what I had been missing in terms of sophistication. Instant feed-in of power and a smooth delivery. I rode the Oxygen once after I bought the Ortler, even though the latter is a slower machine.

I was very happy with the Ortler, but then my current Cube was put on the market on here earlier this year and I quickly snapped it up. It has the Bosch CX Performance drive, compared to the Ortler's Active Line. The battery is also a Powerpack 500, so it has the capacity to make use of the unfettered CX motor. I would not even look at any other drive set up other than a mid-drive machine now. The Cube is very powerful, superbly put together and is everything I was looking for in a bike.

*Woosh seem to have upped their game with their later machines, but my experience of the Sirocco CDL was not good, although the company was helpful.

My ebike journey different. I started in 2007 with Urban Mover ..nimh battery 200 watt foldable. Served me ok, but I needed to replace the battery pack, and eventually did with a lithium Ion battery direct from China.. a configuration calked a frog. This pack is now on its last legs also. Its been moved to a holiday home.
My retirement present to myself is 2017 model Motus. . The only negative about it is the hardness of the saddle. The Bosch motor and control is excellent, and just meets my limited needs.
The last purchase ,for my wife was a rear hub motor bafang by Forme..a British company. I have not ridden it, but she is thrilled with it.

 

[RobF]

thank you warwick.
It's true that the new bikes are better.
The Sirocco CDL was made in 2014. 6 years is a long time.
Back then, it had only the Bosch DU to compare with.
The new woosh Rambla is a world away .
It's just evolution. Bosch went from 2011 with the old classic 50NM drive unit with 288WH battery to the newest 75+NM Gen3 CX in 2019.

My view is you are correct about woosh bikes and Chinese hub bikes in general.

I rarely now see the truly dreadful contraptions I used to a few years ago.

However, I know more about Bosch bikes, and I'm not sure they've progressed much in the same period.

The original Classic motor on my AVE is smooth, quiet, and has little pedal resistance.

Fast forward 10 years, and the latest Bosch motors are being promoted as being, er, smooth, quiet, and having little pedal resistance.

Motor compactness has improved, but judging by the small front ring Performance motor on my Riese and Muller, grunt has hardly advanced.

Batteries have gone nowhere.

The latest 500wh Bosch battery has a bigger capacity than my old 400wh one, but the newer battery also has a bigger case.

Strictly, the case is a little less than proportionately bigger, so there has been marginal gains in cell density.

That lack of progress applies to all batteries, not just Bosch.

 

[Woosh]

The Chinese crank drive motors have always been smoother and more responsive than the hub drives, until recently where we see wide use of hub motors with high reduction ratio like the Aikemas.
RobF, what you failed to appreciate is that for most people, functionality is the most important factor.
If you have arthritic joints, riding uphill with a Bosch Classic motor is a challenge. Going back to 2013 when I brought the 7-speed Sirocco CD to the Redbridge event (March 2013), it was a revelation to a lot of people, not so much because the Sirocco CD was much cheaper (£799), but because it had a throttle, hills were easily conquered with it, even with arthritic knees. One of the forum member commented: it was as rare as 'hen's teeth'. Indeed, it was a great success. Some of the original batch are still in use.
2017: I started using the 48V Bafang MaxDrive (100NM) on my first fat bike.It's an excellent motor.

https://wooshbikes.co.uk/2017/fb6/fb6-4.jpg

2019: I started using the 36V Bafang MaxDrive (100NM) on the Rambla. Now I can get the same power at 36V in a lightweight package.

That's what I call progress.

2013: Woosh Sirocco-CD

2019: Woosh Rambla
https://wooshbikes.co.uk/?rambla