Woosh Camino

[Bogmonster666]

Have been offered a Woosh Camino. Unfortunately too far away to try. I see it is 36v 16A rear hub with a notional 45nm torque.

In real world terms will that get an 80kg rider + 20kg cargo up a long steep hill with 16+ % gradient in places with moderate rider input?

Ideally not at a snails pace with an overheating motor.

My 48 v TSDZ2 will do it relatively easily but down to ~6.5 mph on the steepest section.

My suspicion is the Camino will be underpowered for my needs?

 

[Woosh]

My suspicion is the Camino will be underpowered for my needs?

yes.

 

[Bogmonster666]

Thanks, it was a very good price but not a good fit for my needs and a poor buy if it won’t get me home

 

[saneagle]

Have been offered a Woosh Camino. Unfortunately too far away to try. I see it is 36v 16A rear hub with a notional 45nm torque.

In real world terms will that get an 80kg rider + 20kg cargo up a long steep hill with 16+ % gradient in places with moderate rider input?

Ideally not at a snails pace with an overheating motor.

My 48 v TSDZ2 will do it relatively easily but down to ~6.5 mph on the steepest section.

My suspicion is the Camino will be underpowered for my needs?

If you're struggling with a 48v battery, the Camino can only be worse. Not only have you got less power to start with, but your efficiency will be much lower too - something like 50% vs 70%. For a hill like that, you'd be better off with a 48v hub-motor system. You can always swap out the Camino's controller and LCD for KT ones (£80), which will not only give you a better ride, it'll let you use your other 48v battery so you don't have to buy another one.

KT controllers are 36v/48v dual voltage, so you can tackle the project in three stages:
1.Buy the Camino and try it out, whereupon you figure that it's a bit underpowered and the pedal assist algorithms in the controller are pretty bad.
2. Replace the controller and LCD with KT ones and enjoy your new riding experience, even though the power still sucks.
3. Buy a second battery mount for your 48v battery, fit it to the bike and enjoy that wonderful ebike experience that5 difficult to get elsewhere.
QED

 

[Bogmonster666]

I’m not struggling with a 48v battery…I’m quite happy plodding up at 6.5mph on the steepest sections (and at that speed the front wheel is starting to get very light and skips over bumps) can maintain a good cadence and not feel like I’m going to have a heart attack. Slight tangent, but my main complaint with TSDZ2 is that I often want to cycle at a cadence that’s too fast for the TSDZ2 on stock firmware. My happy cadence is 90 rpm. 6.5mph in bottom gear on my bike is about 83rpm so I’m bouncing off the top of the assist threshold for the motor and ideally would like to be spinning faster - but assistance from the motor tails off quickly over 80 rpm and not feeling like it’s doing much at all at 90 rpm. If I’m feeling lazy I can drop back to 70 rpm and climb at a leisurely 5.5 mph without breaking a sweat- but that feels like an uncomfortably slow cadence - and my balance starts to go to pot and I start weaving a bit. I was considering another bike mainly as a spare ride as I am very dependent on my bike, not because I’m struggling with my current bike (slightly crappy brakes aside - I have more issue going down steep hills than up and my main consumable expense is brake blocks that I go through at an alarming rate).

I know the answer is fieldweakening with custom firmware but I like to stay within the bounds of the law. Yes, I know, not likely anyone would care but it is what it is.

I may not be that typical of an e-bike rider in that I really only want / need assistance on hills or to maintain speed in strong winds. My 10Ah battery often gets me well over 50 miles which means most of the time the motor isn't doing a fat lot. I may now actually be better off with a normally aspirated bike. Went for a cycle ride with friends Saturday and turned the motor off for most of the ride. Was quite a comical and eccentric collection of bikes, an electric folding ‘clown’ bike, a sit up and beg old fashioned looking ‘policeman’s’ bike, and my Frankenstein monstrosity mtb conversation.

I do sometimes need to tow a trailer and I’m usually in a hurry at such times, so the motor assist is very welcome at such times…

 

[Bogmonster666]

Still very undecided about my ‘spare’ bicycle. I think I’ll use my existing and now repaired Tsdz2 on a folder. Ideally then I would want a 48v hub powered regular bike I think. There really appear to be very little option in the pre-built category. There are a couple of cheap Chinese options on Amazon. There is a 43v Wisper wayfarer (that I think is speed control not current - and if I’m spending that much it must be current controlled). Also, a 36v Gran Camino albeit with a relatively beefy hub motor - but not 48v. Out of curiosity, would the Gran Camino have enough grunt to manage 100kg up a 16% incline with some pedalling?

I understand it’s a 20a controller and I think it can be set to current control?

I did try putting something in the motor simulator, hopefully these are the correct settings:

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...

ebikes.ca

I can easily put in 125w, even if I’m feeling very lazy - I am usually cycling at ~20+ mph unassisted on my current bike on the flat.

 

[Woosh]

Out of curiosity, would the Gran Camino have enough grunt to manage 100kg up a 16% incline with some pedalling?

yes. Your motor simulator setup is pretty good too.
The main thing about the Gran Caminom is it's designed for light trail riding. The wheels won't come off if you land on something really hard, the battery won't fly off the bike etc and it's very comfortable bike to ride too.

 

[Bogmonster666]

You have current stock, and can confirm it can be configured as current controlled? You may have a sale as fed up with looking about.

Any concerns about uk rain? Will store indoors, but must be ok to use in the rain…

 

[Woosh]

You have current stock, and can confirm it can be configured as current controlled? You may have a sale as fed up with looking about.

Any concerns about uk rain? Will store indoors, but must be ok to use in the rain…

the default software is current controlled. Basically, you don't get much of a surge if any when you start off. The acceleration is totally predictable. Waterproofing: both the Camino and Gran Camino are very well protected against rain water, you can see by the design: all the cables are routed inside the frame.

I thought you were offered a second hand Gran Camino?

 

[saneagle]

You have current stock, and can confirm it can be configured as current controlled? You may have a sale as fed up with looking about.

Any concerns about uk rain? Will store indoors, but must be ok to use in the rain…

Be careful with his definition of current control. It's not what you want. Only a KT controller will give you that, unless he has something special up his sleeve.

There maybe some Bafang controllers that do it too.

 

[Woosh]

Be careful with his definition of current control. It's not what you want. Only a KT controller will give you that, unless he has something special up his sleeve.

There maybe some Bafang controllers that do it too.

Nothing special. I just ask the controller company to give me current control firmware.

 

[Woosh]

Next time you come to Southend, try my bike with tongsheng ts hub kit. The motor is Aikema 85SX but the kit is so sweet that it is my favourite bike. You can also try my CD bike with the ananda motor too.

 

[Bogmonster666]

It was a regular Camino, and you suggested it may not have enough grunt unless I misunderstood? I still considered it with the option of swapping the motor and / or controller.

As to reply from @saneagle, what I want is something that will provide assistance up to 15.5mph regardless of assistance level. I rarely want to ride anywhere at 8mph (unless up a steep hill), I want to largely ride under my own stream and typically a small amount of assistance to kick in when the gradient / headwind has slowed me down below 15.5 mph. Riding around everywhere on full PAS will make me fat and lazy! Not sure how the Woosh current control differs from KT? My previous Bafang front hub from many years ago was speed control and it wasn’t great. I like my TSDZ2 riding experience.

I do have a few big hills and that’s primarily why I want a motor.

 

[Woosh]

I get it now. Thank you for clarifications.

 

[Bogmonster666]

@Woosh, not wishing to do you out of a sale, but would the used Camino take a TS BB and beefier controller and do what I need or is the motor itself too weedy?

 

[Woosh]

You can't easily change the Camino nor the Gran Camino. a) it's expensive and b) it's probably not necessary.
edit:

let me rephrase that, you already got the TS kit so it's not expensive for you because starting from a Camino, you only have to whip out the bottom bracket to fit the TS kit. However, torque wise, it will be the same motor, no gain there.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Still very undecided about my ‘spare’ bicycle. I think I’ll use my existing and now repaired Tsdz2 on a folder. Ideally then I would want a 48v hub powered regular bike I think. There really appear to be very little option in the pre-built category. There are a couple of cheap Chinese options on Amazon. There is a 43v Wisper wayfarer (that I think is speed control not current - and if I’m spending that much it must be current controlled). Also, a 36v Gran Camino albeit with a relatively beefy hub motor - but not 48v. Out of curiosity, would the Gran Camino have enough grunt to manage 100kg up a 16% incline with some pedalling?

I understand it’s a 20a controller and I think it can be set to current control?

I did try putting something in the motor simulator, hopefully these are the correct settings:

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...

ebikes.ca

I can easily put in 125w, even if I’m feeling very lazy - I am usually cycling at ~20+ mph unassisted on my current bike on the flat.

Depending on the Wayfarer model, it could be either cadence or torque controlled.

All the best, David

 

[Peter.Bridge]

Next time you come to Southend, try my bike with tongsheng ts hub kit. The motor is Aikema 85SX but the kit is so sweet that it is my favourite bike. You can also try my CD bike with the ananda motor too.

What makes it your favourite ? How is the AKM 85SX up hills ?

eta - is it the same 36/48 V 15 A controller and Display as on your BBTS kits ?

 

[Woosh]

the 85SX has 42NM torque, 1.8kgs, is perfect for my weight (75kgs + bike).

AKM85SX(F3)_Aikema Electric Drive System (Suzhou) Co., Ltd_Motors_Batteries

AKM85SX(F3)-Aikema Electric Drive System (Suzhou) Co., Ltd_Motors_Batteries-Rated Power: 250W<br> Max Torque: 42N.m<br> Weight: 1.8kg

www.aikema-e.com

The integrated pedal, torque and speed sensors inside the motor give a very clear feedback. It's difficult to explain but you can feel everything you expect through your chain.
The simplicity of installation is excellent. My bike has a PF bottom bravcket, it would be a messy job using any other kit.

 

[Peter.Bridge]

the 85SX has 42NM torque, 1.8kgs, is perfect for my weight (75kgs + bike).

AKM85SX(F3)_Aikema Electric Drive System (Suzhou) Co., Ltd_Motors_Batteries

AKM85SX(F3)-Aikema Electric Drive System (Suzhou) Co., Ltd_Motors_Batteries-Rated Power: 250W<br> Max Torque: 42N.m<br> Weight: 1.8kg

www.aikema-e.com

The integrated pedal, torque and speed sensors inside the motor give a very clear feedback. It's difficult to explain but you can feel everything you expect through your chain.
The simplicity of installation is excellent. My bike has a PF bottom bravcket, it would be a messy job using any other kit.

Can you run the 85SX at 48v (for those of us a little heavier than 75 kg )

 

[Woosh]

I asked Tongsheng precisely this question, they say don't. They say the torque will remain the same at 42NM for this motor, only the speed is increased. They would have to modify the firmware for running at 48V. I guess they are worried because of the diminutive size of this motor.