Why so few hub geared bikes with belts ? Looking at Kalkhoff

[ElectricJoe]

After a few years off a bike, now looking for an ebike to aid my dodgy knees.
As per title, most bikes seem to have derailleurs, which I hate. Clunky, high maintenance, prone to damage, and just out of place on a high tech bike, rattling a chain around.
But it seems few manufacturers or customers agree, since there are so few hub geared especially with a belt.

As per title, Kalkhoff seem to be one of the few vendors, but they have a very confusing (to me) set of bikes with very similar specs seemingly sold by different bike shops, so hard to compare.

any other makes I should look at? Budget looks like it will need to be £3k.
TIA
Joe

 

[GSV3MiaC]

Me too, although i could manage with a proper chain .. i.e. one not being bent sideways. You need to spec what sort of bike though .. folder, mountain, step thru, etc.

I assume, like me, you want a crank drive motor, not a front wheel hub drive.

 

[RetiredAndRolling]

Riese and Muller have hub motors and belt drives on some models, continuously variable in-hub gearing too. They work well. Very much at the premium end of the market. As ebikes are in high demand, we read, prices likely remain high. You might find a second hand model within your budget. Do some searching for R&M and good luck in your quest.

 

[ElectricJoe]

Correct, crank motor (seems to be becoming the norm?), gears in (not on) rear hub, and belt.
Not too much to ask?
I'm looking for a road/hybrid type bike, it won't be ridden off roads except maybe light use, say canal towpath or the like, and indeed I've contemplated a larger folder (eg bigger than brompton size) for ease of putting in car without bike rack, and why on earth would you want derailleurs on a folder, even more likely to be knocked out of alignment.
Closest I've come so far to what I'm looking for was a Moustache Friday, that had everything except belt (chain instead), that was a discontinued model. But the battery is a bit small otherwise it would have been an impulse buy.
Re step through, until yesterday when i tried one out, i thought I would have been happy with one but i tried the Moustache Samedi and found i really disliked the upright riding style.
p.s. I suppose its best to fit the motor in a folder in the rear hub so maybe thats why they have derailleurs?

 

[Briggs]

New Member to the site, and 1st post...ElectricJoe and GSV3MiaC, exactly the position I am in! I have been getting ideas and views from Pedelecs for months, and have chased, researched and considered all...have sort of whittled it down to Trek District and Stagger range, Giant Dailytour E + 1 belt drive, Yamaha motor, 60Nm and 8spd hub (until I read that the Giant App appears to be rubbish and is well slated) so that might be that one off the list, and now looking at Kalkhoff Image 5B Move. Have already been through every bike from Wisper, Juicy, Whoosh. My brain is befuddled thinking about it! Any other ideas please post.

 

[Ocsid]

The Raleigh Centros range includes belt driven Nexus hub models.
Here is a link: CENTROS RANGE

I went the Gates belt combined with Nexus 8 speed hub geared back in 2016 for my wife, but now I am a very regular user of it. That is a Kalkhoff Agattu of that vintage, but unlike today features their ill reputed Impluse 2 crankdrive motor. The bike and motor in every respect have been good, the more current versions can feature the better respected Bosch drives. Functionally and so far reliability wise our Impulse is fine, it just is a motor with a reputation of poor reliability.
Both Kalkhoff and Raleigh along with some other brands are all bikes from the Derby Cycles Werke GmbH.
Our use is as yours, mainly road, though occasionally a "kind" forest track or decent towpath, not used as a brute extreme exercise machine. For that application the belt and hub gear are an excellent choice, the compliance of the belt making a good marriage with the Nexus hub. For what I thought would be improved reliability I went for the technology of the Nexus 8 rather than the 7, because of its use of roller clutches.

 

[Woosh]

how about converting something like this Bergamont Vitesse N8 with a water bottle front hub kit? lightweight, reliability and relatively low cost.
https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Bergamont-Vitess-N8-Belt-Amsterdam-2020-Touring-Bike_218833.htm

 

[Stubod]

Hi, exactly the same as me! Initially decided I wanted hub gears and chain but ended up with a Centros, (£500 off at the time so put it into budget as I originally wanted a Motus but could not get cross bar with hub gears).
The Centros is hub gears with belt drive, only done 250 miles to date but so far so good. Managed 90 miles between battery charges mainly in "ECO" mode which I find is enough for most riding with an occasional boost to Tour or Boost mode for the hilly bits.

 

[ElectricJoe]

how about converting something like this Bergamont Vitesse N8 with a water bottle front hub kit? lightweight, reliability and relatively low cost.
https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Bergamont-Vitess-N8-Belt-Amsterdam-2020-Touring-Bike_218833.htm

Tempting, I looked at the Swytch conversion kit but judging by youtube vids, Id have to get someone to fit it for me to avoid me destroying a decent bike , and the mass of wires affects my OCD. Plus, with an extra battery added for range, i doubt the cost would be much different to a purpose built bike . I'd be tempted if i already had a decent bike, as it is I'm on a borrowed one atm.

I'm now also torn, should i get a folder and widen up my cycling horizons, or a bike rack and lugging the big thing off and on a car and harder to store?

Despite the fact its against everything i started off looking at, the Wisper 806 folding is tempting me ! Yes, I agree that's highly inconsistent but sometimes, in the immortal words of Mr Jagger, you can't always get what you want but you can get what you need.

 

[Woosh]

what do you mean masses of wires? it's not the kind of kits you buy on amazon or ebay.
there are typically 3 wires: one goes to the LCD, one goes to the motor and one for the pedal sensor.
A ready made bike hides the one going to the motor and to the pedal sensor. A good kit has them made to measure like I did for the Brompton.
https://wooshbikes.co.uk/?hubkits#q70kit

 

[ElectricJoe]

what do you mean masses of wires? it's not the kind of kits you buy on amazon or ebay.
there are typically 3 wires: one goes to the LCD, one goes to the motor and one for the pedal sensor.
A ready made bike hides the one going to the motor and to the pedal sensor. A good kit has them made to measure like I did for the Brompton.
https://wooshbikes.co.uk/?hubkits#q70kit

Well i was talking to the Swytch kit, which certainly seems to involve a extra 3 or 4 wires, on top of the 2 brakes and gear cable you'd have anyway.
Here's pic from a vid of someone's bike they converted

 

[ElectricJoe]

what do you mean masses of wires? it's not the kind of kits you buy on amazon or ebay.
there are typically 3 wires: one goes to the LCD, one goes to the motor and one for the pedal sensor.
A ready made bike hides the one going to the motor and to the pedal sensor. A good kit has them made to measure like I did for the Brompton.
https://wooshbikes.co.uk/?hubkits#q70kit

ps i guess its in the eye of the beholder because when i look at that woosh bike it seems festooned with wires to me

 

[Woosh]

that's true for those bikes with throttle.
The Faro is for example without throttle, there is only one wire for the LCD.

 

[Briggs]

What happened to the discussion on geared hubs with belts...we seem to have drifted on to conversions.

 

[Stubod]

..well, being an engineer of sorts I thought I had better look up a video to actually find out how the Nexus hub works...!!!

Suffice to say after watching a couple of them I still have no clue, other than "probably magic".

I think if I had seen these before I got one I would have probably stuck with conventional gears!...how they work, and why they work is a mystery to me and hats off to the person / persons who developed them.

I am amazed that they last more than about 10 revolutions let alone many miles. I certainly won't be taking one apart for home maintenance anytime soon!

On the basis that ignorance is bliss, I wish I hadn't looked now!

 

[Ocsid]

..well, being an engineer of sorts I thought I had better look up a video to actually find out how the Nexus hub works...!!!

Suffice to say after watching a couple of them I still have no clue, other than "probably magic".

Oh, then probably don't look too deeply into the sublime Rohloff 14 speeder, with or without the electrical shift.

Link; Rohloff
There are some videos available out there to really get into the operating details!!!

 

[Woosh]

What happened to the discussion on geared hubs with belts...we seem to have drifted on to conversions.

it's just that there are not many choices since manufacturers have to face the cost of the split frame, belt tensioner and the necessary hub gear.

 

[Briggs]

As I said in an earlier post, I had considered Trek District/Stagger, Kalkhoff Image 5B Move and Giant Dailytour E + 1. Then Ocsid threw the Raleigh Centros Grand Tour into the mix! (Thank you Ocsid). So I re visited the web in relation to Giant, and whilst the bikes get a good write up (and I think they look great), the very poor comments re the App seem to be growing. So I think I have to dismiss the Yamaha powered machine. Shame. So that leaves Kalkhoff v Raleigh. The Kalkhoff is slightly more expensive by £200 or so. But a lot of the major components are the same - 500Wh battery, Bosch Active Line + motor (50Nm), Shimano M315 hydraulic brakes, Nexus 8spd hub gear. Schwalbe Energiser + on the Kalkhoff, Marathon on the Raleigh. Bosch Purion on Kalkhoff, Intuvia on Raleigh. So there really is nothing in it. And there probably shouldn`t be, since they are indeed made in the same factory. So I think the Raleigh wins it, and the £200 saving could be used on bits and pieces for the bike. This is my view on a hub gear bike, not whether the system is better than derailleurs or not.

 

[Ocsid]

it's just that there are not many choices since manufacturers have to face the cost of the split frame, belt tensioner and the necessary hub gear.

True, the belt, a hub gear and a frame facilitating removal of the belt add cost compared to at least bikes with budget dérailleur gears, but IMO the shortage of the former in the UK is in part, our take on cycling.

Let me put it this way, as a generalisation the UK cyclist is a recreational sport cyclist, more than the Dutch, German & Danish tend to be. Less of us here buy a bike to plod along in our casual gear, keep cycling into older age, use the bike for shopping and the few km commute. Clearly, there are many exceptions, but a UK dealer will sell far more recreational bikes than solid "plodders".

That, coupled to the inevitable price premium on like for like quality IMO tends to be why importers don't focus on bringing many hub geared and belt drive, plodder bikes here. That's simply not the mainstream UK bike market.

 

[Woosh]

I would be very happy to make and sell solid 'plodders'.
the cost of producing a belt drive 3-speed hubgear is little more than a derailleur (about $50 a bike). I made one 3 years ago but it didn't sell well. My guess is people prefer to have 8-speed even if they rarely need more than 3.

https://wooshbikes.co.uk/2017/zephyr-c/zephyr-c-1500.jpg

 

[Ocsid]

Okay, you no one would not have sold me a three speeder these days either.