Why does nobody sell branded bikes with electric kits ready installed?

[Streethawk]

Just wondering, it seems to me that a £3-400 Specialized with a £300 kit and battery from the likes of BMS battery would be superior to the majority of hub motor eBikes out there. All eBikes (except the Derby Panasonic powered bikes perhaps) seem to suffer with cheap chinese components. Even Wisper, while better than most, are still way behind on normal cycle components.

I'm really not convinced by the whole "battery behind the seatpost" thing. Yes, centre of gravity is lower, but the added length makes them handle like a barge, which most people probably dont notice, but as an ex mountain bike racer i find it very annoying. Battery on a rack above the rear wheel would be my preference.

Is there some legal ramification to reselling a Specialized with a kit installed as a new bike? Obviously any warranty would be void with Specialized.

 

[Biged]

Like you say most people would not notice that their bike 'handled like a barge'?
I certainly don't on mine, it appears to handle just like my other bikes, the "battery behind the seatpost" certainly seems ideal to me.

 

[NRG]

Works for me too, in fact my Kalkhoff rides incredible well, the extra length seems to ride over bumps better and there may be an imperceptible flex in the rear frame that absorbs bumps better than a normal sized frame.

 

[stevebills]

Like you say most people would not notice that their bike 'handled like a barge'?
I certainly don't on mine, it appears to handle just like my other bikes, the "battery behind the seatpost" certainly seems ideal to me.

i have a 40ah lifepo4 on the back and have been rididng on one wheel ever since

 

[jbond]

I'm with Streethawk on this one although I think he's being optimistic about the price. Can you really buy a Specialised for < 400 and a full kit for <300?

There comes a point where I think we all start wondering about our perfect e-bike. I just wish it was a bit easier to obtain the individual parts.

Here's mine.
- Surly 700c hybrid
- Avid V-Brakes
- Bafang mini rear motor. 24" wind in a 700c rim
- Lyen 6fet sensorless controller
- Cellman A123 36v battery pack 12s2p. Mounted in a bag in the triangle.
- Auxiliary 36v-15AHr Ping (or equivalent) battery pack mounted on the rack for longer distances
- CA with current limiting to create an economy mode.
- And some quality fittings for the groupset, saddle and so on.

Maybe this year, eh?

 

[Scottyf]

I think this is the reason why ready made kits come into play. The components on my bike are pretty average and least not cheap chinese gear.

But i opted to go that route and unfortuatly even with my starter kit i'm already looking at how to advance it.

However the bike and its components are all in good working order.

 

[flecc]

I don't agree that the £400 plus £300 combination is remotely superior to what's on the market. That BMS kit doesn't match up to anything like the best out there, the best batteries alone cost far more than the BMS complete kit.

Nor are all e-bikes made from the lowest grade components. eZee have made a point of using better components on their models in recent years specifically to answer that accusation, yet their prices remain competitive.

Using that same brand for example, their quality kit at £895 plus a decent bike at around £400 or more is very close to the cost of a new complete eZee model, making the conversion work hardly worthwhile, when the complete thing includes the stronger dedicated e-bike forks and frame with built in battery provision. I don't think the frame length makes much difference for road use, which is what production e-bikes are intended for.

For mountain biking offroad I agree that a fast steering short frame is an advantage.
.

 

[EdBike]

Cytronex + Cannondale? First one that springs to mind, and I'm sure there are others.

 

[overlander]

You could just buy a Trek FX, the base bike is a high quality bike and the kit is probably the best money can buy. Add all the separate parts up and its considerably more than Trek sell the bike for. The bike really is good spec the Shimano LX gears and shifters really do suit the bike. The base bike is so good i am considering buying one instead of the Trek 1.5 for non powered commuting.

 

[HarryB]

I cannot agree that the battery hanging off the rear rack is superior to a built in battery. The FX Trek I rode was awful compared to any built in the frame battery bike I have ridden (having the motor in the rear wheel doesn't help matters). I do think that Cytronex gets it pretty much right with an off the shelf frame but at a cost in capacity.

 

[Streethawk]

The trek FX is a good point, the non electric version start below £400, Trek sell the FX+ for £1800 or so right?

For Flecc's point, i'm sure BMS kits aren't the best, but they sell Bafang motors and Phylion batteries which are on my Aurora and they're great, the strongest part of the bike. I'm sure ultra-high end batteries that push the envelope could offer more. I'm sure there are other Chinese companies who could offer better for similar money, especially if someone was to work in bulk with them,

A BMS kit with a 350w Bafang BPM and a 36v 15ah li-ion from them is just over £300 shipped. A 2011 Specialized Hardrock Disc is £380, and usefully already 7 speed and cable disc brake equipped.

I've just looked at Ezee's website and their Torq looks like the usual low spec Chinese bike, with only the wise spec'ing of Schwalbe Marathon Plus tyres standing out.

Please nobody misunderstand me, i accept that i'm still new here and i dont want to upset the apple-cart, but i just don't see the sort of bikes that i feel people want. Cytronex-Cannondale is great, way overpriced though, the same with all the big manufacturers own offerings, and i'm a little unsure why?

 

[overlander]

The Trek Fx+ is based on the 7.5 model which is about £699 plus some components from the 7.6 which is just under a grand. The Fx range is one of the best hybrid bikes out but then again they do go up to £2000. Based on the FX 7.5 at £699 and buying the kit separate at £1400 would come in about £2100 thats based on Zyro prices and the motor is of lower spec. Add that together and you get well over 2K, Trek sold that for 1600 last year so they must have been subsidizing it. I notice this year they have lowered the spec and increased the price to £1900 which is closer to the component bikes cost.

 

[Streethawk]

The Trek Fx+ is based on the 7.5 model which is about £699 plus some components from the 7.6 which is just under a grand. The Fx range is one of the best hybrid bikes out but then again they do go up to £2000. Based on the FX 7.5 at £699 and buying the kit separate at £1400 would come in about £2100 thats based on Zyro prices and the motor is of lower spec. Add that together and you get well over 2K, Trek sold that for 1600 last year so they must have been subsidizing it. I notice this year they have lowered the spec and increased the price to £1900 which is closer to the component bikes cost.

I doubt they were subsidizing it, the kit doesn't cost them £1400 just because their distributor sells it on for that, neither does the bike cost them retail price, the margin on bikes is pretty big. They charge more for their kit because they're discouraging that option.

I remember years ago a motorbike magazine built a bike from genuine spares. If i remember correctly it was a Honda CBR600 and retailed at about £6,500 at the time. The bike built from spare parts came in at £25,000.

 

[overlander]

I cannot agree that the battery hanging off the rear rack is superior to a built in battery. The FX Trek I rode was awful compared to any built in the frame battery bike I have ridden (having the motor in the rear wheel doesn't help matters). I do think that Cytronex gets it pretty much right with an off the shelf frame but at a cost in capacity.

I really do not notice it much now, when i first got the bike i found it cumbersome to push out of doors etc but once going you do not notice it. But lets be honest ALL electric bikes ride like crap compared to a quality pushbike. Just part of the price we have to pay for the helping hand i guess.

 

[overlander]

I doubt they were subsidizing it, the kit doesn't cost them £1400 just because their distributor sells it on for that, neither does the bike cost them retail price, the margin on bikes is pretty big. They charge more for their kit because they're discouraging that option.

I remember years ago a motorbike magazine built a bike from genuine spares. If i remember correctly it was a Honda CBR600 and retailed at about £6,500 at the time. The bike built from spare parts came in at £25,000.

Remember Bionx and Trek are two separate company's yes they will sell cheaper to Trek but they still have to watch their own product. If they sold it too cheap to Trek people would just strip it off the Trek, thats what i will do one day. There is no doubt that the Bionx kit is one of the best but you do pay for it. I am hoping the Bionx will still be going long after i need it just for the fun factor. But the FX 7.5 is just so good at what it does now my knee has healed i find the motor more of a hindrance now with regards to top speed. I really do think Trek are trying to make headway into the electric bikes, so priced it well. I do think they have lost the way with the 2011 model but it can only be good that one of the biggest bike manufactures in the world team up with a quality motor manufacturer, this can only be good news. We need more of the big boys like Trek to take them mainstream.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I think your ideas are on the right track and if someone's handy with spanners they can make a really nice bike for not too much money. However, if you're doing it as a business, you have to pay someone to do the conversion plus their national insurance plus their holiday pay etc. Also, you'll have to pay the VAT and other import charges on the kit because you'll be bringing in the stuff in bulk, and you'll need to pay for your premises to store your stuff and do the conversion, and advertising, and, finally, the most expensive bit, the profit for the business, so that you can pay your own wages and expenses (trips to China etc.) and expand your business. Then, having sold your bikes, there's your no-quibble guarantee which causes you to have to refund customers that aren't happy with your product because they haven't a clue about it.There's a whole list of other costs in running a business as well, but I think you're starting to get the picture. I think that if you're a one man band, you could make a bit of pocket money doing what you suggest, but for a business, it's a lot easier to buy cheap ready-made Chinese e-bikes in bulk after working with them to make them how you want and let them bear the cost of warranties and defects.

 

[Streethawk]

Don't get me wrong, i wouldn't consider doing this myself, i like my career just the way it is . I just cant understand why others arent. All those overheads could be covered fairly easily i think, you'd be selling a top notch product.

I just cant get my head around all these, heavy, messily welded, straight gauge alloy frames, if you're lucky with a bit of curved tubing. Not a mention of a butted tube, forged dropout let along hydroforming. These frames are on a par with £100 supermarket bikes, and yet they're being sold on £1500 eBikes and people are not questioning it, i really don't understand.

I know i bought one myself, but i was under no illusions as to the cycle component quality on the Aurora, its a £150 complete bike with a nice 350w Bafang kit on it. Thats just the job for my commute, and given i had little knowledge of kits at the time, it suited me.

 

[overlander]

Don't get me wrong, i wouldn't consider doing this myself, i like my career just the way it is . I just cant understand why others arent. All those overheads could be covered fairly easily i think, you'd be selling a top notch product.

I just cant get my head around all these, heavy, messily welded, straight gauge alloy frames, if you're lucky with a bit of curved tubing. Not a mention of a butted tube, forged dropout let along hydroforming. These frames are on a par with £100 supermarket bikes, and yet they're being sold on £1500 eBikes and people are not questioning it, i really don't understand.

I know i bought one myself, but i was under no illusions as to the cycle component quality on the Aurora, its a £150 complete bike with a nice 350w Bafang kit on it. Thats just the job for my commute, and given i had little knowledge of kits at the time, it suited me.

I do get your point but the whole thing comes down to numbers. Electric bikes at present are odd ball bikes for a very limited market. Until the big boys become interested it will stay that way. Personally i do still feel that we are not quite there yet with electric bikes, maybe the next generation will be more mainstream. 95% of electric bikes can be spotted miles away as they just look so awful, a throw back from the 60's shopping bike. Thats why the bikes from Trek and Kalkhoff appeal to me, they look like real bikes. With panniers on the Trek and a silent motor no one knows its electric and for me thats what needs to become more mainstream. Until electric bikes look like normal bikes and cycle more like normal bikes they will always be the odd ball choice.

 

[banbury frank]

Hi There is such a company they convert Raleigh bikes but if you send your new bike to them they will convert it they have been selling converted bikes and kits for 4 years If your looking for cheap they are not for YOU . there is a 5 year warranty on there motors there 48 volt kits have powerful 30 mph + off road mode in normal mode limited to 15 mph

www.xipi.co.uk

Frank

 

[jbond]

I think your ideas are on the right track and if someone's handy with spanners they can make a really nice bike for not too much money. However, if you're doing it as a business, you have to pay someone to do the conversion plus their national insurance plus their holiday pay etc.
...
it's a lot easier to buy cheap ready-made Chinese e-bikes in bulk after working with them to make them how you want and let them bear the cost of warranties and defects.

It's worth looking at Alien here as they've been at this game for some time and are still around. They sell kits that are made up in China. They also sell bikes fully built in China using many of the same components as their kits. And their prices are competitive. Their bikes are pretty conventional when viewed purely as bikes. But to get the low prices the bikes are roughly equivalent to a Halfords bargain model.

Maybe it can't be made into business sense but I'd like to see Alien offer a premium model with the next step up in components. I don't see why this should add much more than £250 to the UK consumer price. Since they're all made in China too this comes down to negotiating with the Chinese supplier to spec out exactly what's required.

I'd also like to see Alien offer a slightly larger range with more options. It would cost a bit more money, but packing boxes from components in the UK rather than speccing boxes packed in China would give more flexibility.

And finally what I'd really like to see is some specialist retailer in the UK selling all the individual bits. If you take a supplier like BMSBattery, I don't think they actually hold any stock except for some of the small low value parts. Each order is actually made up on the fly from orders placed with middle men just outside the factory gate of each component manufacturer. This is why you get a 4 week wait before it's shipped and then fairly rapid shipping. I wonder if the supply chain can be shifted across the world so the retailer is closer to us.

Then I think about what the Electric Bike Shop is doing. They're Cambridge shop is like the typical back street bicycle workshop. Perhaps they need to partner with somebody like Cellman in China. And that perhaps is the bottom line. There's a niche here for people who can negotiate with both the UK and Chinese and act as middlemen since neither side seems able to deal directly.