who dreams this stuff up...?
- Thread starter Beeping-Sleauty
- Start date
Apparently our friends in Germany and Holland:
"Similar policies — which would not extend to criminal law — have already been adopted by Germany and Holland, where transport campaigners say they have had a significant influence in changing attitudes towards cycling."
Who knows, might help here. I speak as a car driver, cyclist and pedestrian. It wouldn't bother me and might save a few cyclists lives.
"Similar policies — which would not extend to criminal law — have already been adopted by Germany and Holland, where transport campaigners say they have had a significant influence in changing attitudes towards cycling."
Who knows, might help here. I speak as a car driver, cyclist and pedestrian. It wouldn't bother me and might save a few cyclists lives.
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As a driver of a 19 foot 3.5 tonne Campervan and a keen leisure cyclist I can see logic in this. There’s a lot of motorists on our roads who are very bad mannered, drive far too fast and pass way too close to cyclists and pedestrians (pavements and cycle lanes here in Cornwall are localised to towns only).
A law that requires motorists to show consideration for cyclists and other slow and vulnerable road users has to be good news.
If it saves one life then it will get my vote.
-----------------------------------------------
Cougar Mountain Electric Bike 36v 200w rear wheel Hub motor (Jul07)
fitted with 10 Ah LiFePo4 battery (Apr08)
Maximum range (road/hills - Cornwall) 18 miles
Maximum range (on flat) 25 miles
.
A law that requires motorists to show consideration for cyclists and other slow and vulnerable road users has to be good news.
If it saves one life then it will get my vote.
-----------------------------------------------
Cougar Mountain Electric Bike 36v 200w rear wheel Hub motor (Jul07)
fitted with 10 Ah LiFePo4 battery (Apr08)
Maximum range (road/hills - Cornwall) 18 miles
Maximum range (on flat) 25 miles
.
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So cyclists/ebikers dont make mistakes then? Surely there are better ways to ensure tolerance for cyclists from drivers than an unfair automatic blame.
They could build more cycle lanes, run more tv ads to educate drivers, but i hope they dont adopt this example of so called positive discrimination.
Every incident should be judged on its particular circumstances. Remember innocent till proven guilty,the right to silence and Magna Carta.Remember when torture was illegal and immoral? Im off on a rant here but as a cyclist and car owner i say this is a very bad idea.
They could build more cycle lanes, run more tv ads to educate drivers, but i hope they dont adopt this example of so called positive discrimination.
Every incident should be judged on its particular circumstances. Remember innocent till proven guilty,the right to silence and Magna Carta.Remember when torture was illegal and immoral? Im off on a rant here but as a cyclist and car owner i say this is a very bad idea.
'However, policy-makers believe radical action is required to get people out of cars and onto bicycles or to walk more. Only 1%-2% of journeys are at present made by bike.' {from the times article}
Answerromote the ebike, its safer than conventional cycling and still keeps us active.{2 back ops severe disc degeneration 13 yrs, dodgy knee} wouldnt use my car unless absolutely neccessary and couldnt ride a normal bike.ebikes are cool, yeah'
Answerromote the ebike, its safer than conventional cycling and still keeps us active.{2 back ops severe disc degeneration 13 yrs, dodgy knee} wouldnt use my car unless absolutely neccessary and couldnt ride a normal bike.ebikes are cool, yeah'Interesting figure 1-2%. From the bikes parked at work and other sites I have visited I calculated 0.5 - 2%. Half a per cent when it's raining or too cold and those without cars cycle in. I'm in with the 1 - 2% ers
I think that automatic blame thing is going to be bigger issue in some parts of the country - the inner city parts (like London). The death & injury rates for cyclists are high and the safety factor (aside from the crap weather) does put a lot of people off. It's a tough one but on balance and having been cut up and nearly trashed a couple of times by impatient £ossers I'd vote Yes.
I think that automatic blame thing is going to be bigger issue in some parts of the country - the inner city parts (like London). The death & injury rates for cyclists are high and the safety factor (aside from the crap weather) does put a lot of people off. It's a tough one but on balance and having been cut up and nearly trashed a couple of times by impatient £ossers I'd vote Yes.
behaviour change...?
frankly, the only thing that will remove people from their cars will be cost.
bikes are still too 'nerdy' & traffic too intimidating for most.
we simply don't have the road respect for each other that most europeans enjoy, consider the Dutch, Finns, Swedes & Germans, none have better weather, but they do have better attitudes to other non-car road users.
on any given day i see countless examples of motorists failing to pay proper attention to the task in hand - driving, they are on the phone, texting, eating, smoking, fiddling with their Sat-nav / CD changer / Radio, adjusting their dress, checking their make-up, even reading the papers for Gods' sake.
there is probably a similar percentage of 'stupid' cyclists, riding on crowded pavements, jumping lights, failing to indicate, lost in their headphones, riding unlit at night..etc, these guys usually get their just desserts.
issuing more legislation in an attempt to force them to pay more attention, will, in my humble opinion, be futile. a shift in awareness is whats needed,
i would be extremely annoyed to be made culpable when colliding with a zombie pedestrian who has just stepped of the kerb & into the road & then straight into me, without practising their green cross code, which they should have learned by the time they were old enough to be let out by Mummy un-accompanied.
Yes, we need to get more peeps out of their cars, yes we need to save more lives on the road, but i do not feel this is the best way to do it.
what we need is a stronger bike culture, as opposed to the car culture, something like the accepted culture in Holland, or the initiative launched in Copenhagen. We need encouragement, not further enslavement.
just my penny-farthing,
frankly, the only thing that will remove people from their cars will be cost.
bikes are still too 'nerdy' & traffic too intimidating for most.
we simply don't have the road respect for each other that most europeans enjoy, consider the Dutch, Finns, Swedes & Germans, none have better weather, but they do have better attitudes to other non-car road users.
on any given day i see countless examples of motorists failing to pay proper attention to the task in hand - driving, they are on the phone, texting, eating, smoking, fiddling with their Sat-nav / CD changer / Radio, adjusting their dress, checking their make-up, even reading the papers for Gods' sake.
there is probably a similar percentage of 'stupid' cyclists, riding on crowded pavements, jumping lights, failing to indicate, lost in their headphones, riding unlit at night..etc, these guys usually get their just desserts.
issuing more legislation in an attempt to force them to pay more attention, will, in my humble opinion, be futile. a shift in awareness is whats needed,
i would be extremely annoyed to be made culpable when colliding with a zombie pedestrian who has just stepped of the kerb & into the road & then straight into me, without practising their green cross code, which they should have learned by the time they were old enough to be let out by Mummy un-accompanied.
Yes, we need to get more peeps out of their cars, yes we need to save more lives on the road, but i do not feel this is the best way to do it.
what we need is a stronger bike culture, as opposed to the car culture, something like the accepted culture in Holland, or the initiative launched in Copenhagen. We need encouragement, not further enslavement.
just my penny-farthing,
worth remembering that as well as often better cycling infrastructure (although its not as rosy across the North Sea as its claimed to be) jaywalking is a criminal offence in many European nations (unlike in the UK) and that the laws are enforced there - anyone caught jaywalking (if they don't simply end up being knocked over) is liable to end up being stopped by a cop (and it is prudent to obey people carrying Glock 17L's who know how to use them) and paying a few euros to the public purse, or even being publically berated in the street by a stranger...
I think out there people consider breaking a traffic law to be worse than something like taking recreational drugs and tantamount to violence or abusive behaviour, whist in Britain we see traffic offences as "non-crimes" despite the fact they can lead to people being hurt or killed..
I think out there people consider breaking a traffic law to be worse than something like taking recreational drugs and tantamount to violence or abusive behaviour, whist in Britain we see traffic offences as "non-crimes" despite the fact they can lead to people being hurt or killed..
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Making it costlier to run a car will only make the economys problems worse and contribute further financial hardship and dicontent. The car is integral to society but its use can be limited. We dont live in an environment where Hospitals, schools and shopping centres are local.The demise of the corner shop and the closure of local schools have made us more reliant on cars. Public transport needs to be improved certainly but the car is still the best transport for a familys needs. The economies of the developed world depend on their road and rail transport network, its foolish to think otherwise.
I agree with bleeping sleuty that its an entirely new attitude in our road culture that we need. I rode my ebike along a busy carriageway last night on an errand and felt a lot safer as most of my route was along a marked off cycle track. Every major road should have these tracks and why not every road? This would help make peace between car and bike users,save lives and get more cars off the roads. Kids could use bikes safely to travel to school [ebikes especially as they are farther away usually} and general obesity would decrease.
As to educating drivers perhaps something could be added to the driving test to improve the courtesy and respect of car drivers to cyclists and other road users,the car as king of the road mentality is dangerous and endemic.
I agree with bleeping sleuty that its an entirely new attitude in our road culture that we need. I rode my ebike along a busy carriageway last night on an errand and felt a lot safer as most of my route was along a marked off cycle track. Every major road should have these tracks and why not every road? This would help make peace between car and bike users,save lives and get more cars off the roads. Kids could use bikes safely to travel to school [ebikes especially as they are farther away usually} and general obesity would decrease.
As to educating drivers perhaps something could be added to the driving test to improve the courtesy and respect of car drivers to cyclists and other road users,the car as king of the road mentality is dangerous and endemic.
I don't think this is the sort of thing which can be easily taught at "driving test" level other than what is already there.
The driving test, especially in its present incarnation, is already a fairly stringent test, my younger friends or others who are learning to drive very rarely pass first time and my own attempt at it and the whole stresses associated with learning have been sufficient enough to put me off even today. I'm increasingly meeting younger folks who choose not to drive for a variety of reasons (not just eco-warrior type ones), or who have once had a license, had it revoked for some (often fairly trivial) violations and can't be bothered with the retest.
Although I understand why it is there for safety, I think the current practice in this country making the driving test ever harder actually contributes to the negative elements of driving, as people have invested so much time, effort and stress in getting that bit of paper thats when they feel such a sense of entitlement to the road over and above other road users. Also my experience of driving instructors is that they are often peevish, angry old men to the point of actually being true to popular sitcom stereotypes, and aren't really very good role models for young drivers.
IMO a far better idea than constantly making the driving test harder would be to limit the max power of vehicles new drivers were allowed until they gained a certain amount of real life experience, and maybe even for Ofcom to start leaning a bit more on certain media portrayals of car culture. Yes it could be construed as censorship but free speech has limits just as we have speed limits and traffic signals..
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Sorry if thats how it sounded but i wasnt implying i wanted the driving test to be harder but perhaps have a greater emphasis on showing courtesy to cyclists and other road users. I agree that the test is stressfull enough already. I also agree that more powerful cars should not be available to young drivers until they have gained some experience of 'real' driving. Road deaths would surely decrease if this was adopted,young men especially, usually pass their test around 18-21yrs while their testosterone is at its highest which also contributes.
My driving instructor i remember was the stereotypical Victor Meldrew type too!
My driving instructor i remember was the stereotypical Victor Meldrew type too!
It would be helpful if they stopped the courts reducing compensation because cyclists choose a dangerous form of transport. Assuming automatic blame is a form of tax as car insurance is automatically billed for ambulance and hospital costs etc. So more of the NHS bill will be paid by motorists, that's why it will be a popular idea in government.
its probably the fairest out of a variety of unpopular solutions (others such as psychological tests for drivers are a bit "minority report"!), after all if there isn't a RTC the motorist isn't going to be penalised. It still should only be considered after infrastructure improvements...
Ironically one of the things I was failed for on my driving test was for passing too close to a cyclist! At that age I was so focused on trying to get that license but I was simply not psychologically ready as with hindsight I did not have the empathy for other road users - but the test was a close call and had I scraped through it I would have become a gary boy and my mum would probably be putting flowers on my grave now, and probably also hoping that she doesn't have to tell the bobby the family of the people I hurt/killed (who may once have even been friends) have smashed up the flower pot again and left a nasty note or tried to push over the headstone.
Instead I am now in my late thirties and fitter than some of the youths half my age, despite a earlier decade of hedonism. I actually like cars but I find the youth culture now associated with them is a bit dysfunctional TBH..
The "educating young road users" is a really difficult one but I think it needs to be done away from the school/cops/nanny state which youths naturally rebel against and at "street level" - perhaps one way is to encourage more youths to cycle, so as others who drive won't want to run over their mates!
Ironically one of the things I was failed for on my driving test was for passing too close to a cyclist! At that age I was so focused on trying to get that license but I was simply not psychologically ready as with hindsight I did not have the empathy for other road users - but the test was a close call and had I scraped through it I would have become a gary boy and my mum would probably be putting flowers on my grave now, and probably also hoping that she doesn't have to tell the bobby the family of the people I hurt/killed (who may once have even been friends) have smashed up the flower pot again and left a nasty note or tried to push over the headstone.
Instead I am now in my late thirties and fitter than some of the youths half my age, despite a earlier decade of hedonism. I actually like cars but I find the youth culture now associated with them is a bit dysfunctional TBH..
The "educating young road users" is a really difficult one but I think it needs to be done away from the school/cops/nanny state which youths naturally rebel against and at "street level" - perhaps one way is to encourage more youths to cycle, so as others who drive won't want to run over their mates!
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whoops... maybe they won't...
...after all that...
Crash blame proposals ‘not being considered’ | Bicycle business | News by BikeBiz
whatever...
...after all that...
Crash blame proposals ‘not being considered’ | Bicycle business | News by BikeBiz
whatever...
On the other hand:
Grandmother left fighting for her life after being hit by cyclist outside supermarket | Mail Online
This happened on a pavement, by the way.
(I should just like to stress that I am not a Daily Mail reader, but our local paper has not put the full story online)
Grandmother left fighting for her life after being hit by cyclist outside supermarket | Mail Online
This happened on a pavement, by the way.
(I should just like to stress that I am not a Daily Mail reader, but our local paper has not put the full story online)
I hope the lady fully recovers.We all need to be careful out there car,ebike whatever.
Good to see the big brother idea looks scrapped.
As to educating young drivers just passing the word to friends,young relatives what its like to be an ebiker/cyclist might help them to see things from another perspective. Id been riding my ebike downhill recently on the marked cycle track side of a carriageway and because of overhanging trees had to stay among the traffic.By coincidence a friend was complaining of the terrible behaviour of cyclists doing that very same thing on that road and i was able to set him straight that they had no other option.
I wouldnt have reported this to the council as you just dont do that sort of thing do you?not but this time i did and ill be checking they cut the hedges back.
Whats wrong with the Daily Mail?I still read it on Saturdays and one rags as good as another, for real news i use the net.
Good to see the big brother idea looks scrapped.
As to educating young drivers just passing the word to friends,young relatives what its like to be an ebiker/cyclist might help them to see things from another perspective. Id been riding my ebike downhill recently on the marked cycle track side of a carriageway and because of overhanging trees had to stay among the traffic.By coincidence a friend was complaining of the terrible behaviour of cyclists doing that very same thing on that road and i was able to set him straight that they had no other option.
I wouldnt have reported this to the council as you just dont do that sort of thing do you?not
but this time i did and ill be checking they cut the hedges back.Whats wrong with the Daily Mail?I still read it on Saturdays and one rags as good as another, for real news i use the net.
if you pay council tax reporting something to the council is no different IMO than if you bought a computer and some disks or mains leads were missing so you called the suppliers and made them send you the missing parts..I wouldnt have reported this to the council as you just dont do that sort of thing do you?not
in many of the Scandinavian or Teutonic countries people here admire for their better infrastructure the citizens think nothing of complaining to the municipal authorities when service falls short of expected standards (and they pay more taxes than we do so have even more right to complain) - at the same time they won't criticise their neighbour if he takes drugs or looks at naughty pictures provided it doesn't affect their lives, but they will tell him off if he's using the roads badly!
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Here in Denmark, by law it's always the "hard" road user's fault if he hits a "soft" road user - pedestrian or cyclist.
If the cyclist or pedestrian was very careless you don't get fined, but your insurance will pay damages anyway.
I find it fair in such unbalanced matters, the car driver only gets a dent in the car - the cyclist gets physically hurt, paralysed for life or dies.
If two cars crash, each car's insurance pays for the damages on the occupants of the other car - regardless of who gets the blame for the accident.
That the insurance companies in Denmark drags out the payment for years is another matter..
If the cyclist or pedestrian was very careless you don't get fined, but your insurance will pay damages anyway.
I find it fair in such unbalanced matters, the car driver only gets a dent in the car - the cyclist gets physically hurt, paralysed for life or dies.
If two cars crash, each car's insurance pays for the damages on the occupants of the other car - regardless of who gets the blame for the accident.
That the insurance companies in Denmark drags out the payment for years is another matter..
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It is just that, having worked in the news media for much of my life, I prefer ones that are not heavily biased. (I'm not referring to this particular story, obviously.)
This is a great example of what's wrong with newspapers. Things are almost always more complex than the simplistic, sensation seeking articles would indicate. A good look on the internet, while not 100% accurate, is often like you putting your friend right.
PS: Anyone object to a law saying Taxi drivers are always responsible.