Which crank motor to choose? And is Active Plus better than STEPS E6000?

[TomNO]

Hello,

I am looking for a new electrical bike, since the motor on my old one recently died. It had the E6000 Shimano STEPS motor, but I'm hesitant to buy a new bike with the same motor for several reasons - it's and old design, you can't upgrade software without a special (and expensive) interface box, and the worst thing I hate about the E6000 is the noise. I'm surprised every time I read on forums or reviews how quiet the Steps E6000 is, or, as they usually describe it, "nearly silent" or something like that. This is not my experience at all. I found it to be very loud at all loads since it was new, even when driving flat, but when going uphill, it got so loud I was embarrassed to pass anyone on the road, and pedestrians could hear me from far away and would turn around to look who's making that strange noise. I have never seen any other e-bike on the road that has been so loud. I am not sure if they all are like that, or if my unit was bad, but I used it for about 3 years and it worked just fine, never had any problems with it. Anyway, I am looking for a new bike, and can't decide which motor/system I should choose.

I live in Norway, where we generally have a very hilly topography. I ride the bike every day to and from work, about 10km each way, and have several quite steep hills on the way. I never ride off-road. I prefer high cadence with low load, my goal is not to make as little effort as possible, but to be able to maintain high, steady cadence and speed, even when going up hills. I see a lot of people driving Bosch CX in high gear/low cadence every day on my way to work, this is not what I want, I want it to be closer to a regular bicycle, but without dying of driving up these hills every day. I pass the 25km/h limit all the time, so it's important that it's easy (relatively) to pedal even when the motor is off. And talking about torque, the 50nm from my STEPS has been enough, but I wouldn't mind a bit more, but then you are looking at the eMTB motors which are an overkill for me (I believe).

So, the options are:

Bosch Performance Line CX - as I understand, these are not the best to pedal with motor off/past speed limit due to the design of the chainring. Also, I have heard that they are not the quietest, or the most reliable motors. And I guess 75nm is an overkill for me anyway.

Bosch Active Line Plus - I like that it's a recent design/model, quiet (so they say) and is (on paper) about as powerful as STEPS E6000, however, I have heard that the STEPS E6000 feels a bit more powerful in real life. Has anyone driven both and can comment this? Is Active Line Plus and upgrade over E6000?

STEPS E8000 - I have seen some videos with this motor, and it seemed kind of loud? And if I were to buy such a powerful motor, wouldn't it be better to just buy Bosch CX then?

STEPS E6100 - upcoming model, 60nm sounds perfect, supposedly quieter than the E6000, new design etc, however, this model is not released yet, and I don't want to be without a bike till winter/spring when I assume new bikes with this motor will start appearing in stores.

Brose - hard to get in Norway, expensive, so not really considering this one, unfortunately.

Yamaha PW or PW-X - I have read that they are not good for high cadence riders.

So I'm kind of leaning towards the Active Line Plus, and if anyone knows how it compares to E6000 in real life, I would love to hear their opinion. Any other tips/recommendations would be very much appreciated.

Thanks,
Tom

 

[Nealh]

You probably should have had the motor changed under warranty.
My brother has just got a Willier commuting bike with E6000 & added Badass4 for s pedelecs speeds and is very pleased with it so far, it's quieter then his Kalkhoff Endeavour s- pedelecs Bosch active line motor.

 

[TomNO]

You probably should have had the motor changed under warranty.
My brother has just got a Willier commuting bike with E6000 & added Badass4 for s pedelecs speeds and is very pleased with it so far, it's quieter then his Kalkhoff Endeavour s- pedelecs Bosch active line motor.

Hmm. Actually, there is still warranty on the bicycle/motor, and I am delivering it to the dealer this weekend, but I have decided to buy a new bicycle anyway, since I want a lighter, better looking frame, frame mounted battery (have it in the back now), and a suspension fork. Also, the battery seems to have aged so I don't get the same range as I used to, so I thought I would just sell the bike if it gets fixed on warranty, and put the money towards something new.
I have looked for videos of STEPS in action to try to judge if they all are this noisy, but it's hard to find clean videos of them in action. This is a good one though:

My STEPS sounded exactly like this in real life, only louder than it appears in the video. I tried once to record the noise with my phone, but it never sounded nearly as loud in the videos as in real life.
I assume your brother compared it to one of the old Active Line motors? Because I have read that the new generation is quieter. Also, could it be that STEPS has been revised and your brother has a newer version? Because mine is from 2015, or maybe even 2014, maybe Shimano improved the E6000 at some point?

 

[Nefarious]

My E8000 Steps motor isn't silent but it's certainly quiet. I don't truly warrent a mountain bike but I too live in a very hilly area and the motor is great - still get a workout up the hills but never feel like dying like I used to.

Re Shimano Vs Bosch, employees in both of my local independent stores recommended the E8000 as a more sophisticated motor and more natural feeling ride

 

[Trevormonty]

See this review.

http://ebiketips.road.cc/content/reviews/components/bosch-active-line-plus-motor-1680

The STEPs 6000 I had wasn't any noiser than me CX drive, but 25kmh cutoff was sharper, bosch fades it out between 25-27km..

 

[TomNO]

See this review.

http://ebiketips.road.cc/content/reviews/components/bosch-active-line-plus-motor-1680

The STEPs 6000 I had wasn't any noiser than me CX drive, but 25kmh cutoff was sharper, bosch fades it out between 25-27km..

I have seen this review, and some others. I have been digging for info on the new Active Plus motor for days now, even on German forums. It seems that almost everybody who has tried it, have been very satisfied with it, but what I'm really curious about is how it compares to my old E6000. When I have used E6000 for years, and then read somewhere (I think one of the German pedelec forums) that the new Active Plus feels a bit less powerful than the old E6000, I get a bit sceptic. I also read that it does not assist as much when you just start to pedal, like at traffic lights, which is a minus. Last thing I want is a downgrade from my old E6000.

 

[TomNO]

My E8000 Steps motor isn't silent but it's certainly quiet. I don't truly warrent a mountain bike but I too live in a very hilly area and the motor is great - still get a workout up the hills but never feel like dying like I used to.

Re Shimano Vs Bosch, employees in both of my local independent stores recommended the E8000 as a more sophisticated motor and more natural feeling ride

I have been really curious about how E8000 performs and sounds, and how similar in general it is to E6000. But as I understand, it's a bit louder, similar to CX, which probably is considered normal considering it's a high torque unit, but it's hard to accept it when you actually don't need that much torque. Have you used other motors that you can compare the noise of your E8000 to?
Unfortunately, where I live, there are no proper bicycle or sports stores nearby, and the only nearby sports stores that sell e-bikes are located inside shopping malls, so you can't really try out any of the bikes there. And I haven't really seen that many E8000s on the roads I usually drive, it's mostly CX's (esp Haibikes).

 

[Nefarious]

I have been really curious about how E8000 performs and sounds, and how similar in general it is to E6000. But as I understand, it's a bit louder, similar to CX, which probably is considered normal considering it's a high torque unit, but it's hard to accept it when you actually don't need that much torque. Have you used other motors that you can compare the noise of your E8000 to?
Unfortunately, where I live, there are no proper bicycle or sports stores nearby, and the only nearby sports stores that sell e-bikes are located inside shopping malls, so you can't really try out any of the bikes there. And I haven't really seen that many E8000s on the roads I usually drive, it's mostly CX's (esp Haibikes).

Yes, CXs are certainly prevalent. I was on the Tissington Trail in Derbyshire at the weekend and there were a wide range of e-bikes on view. None of them were totally silent and none made a racket either. I have briefly tried the CX and also the Yamaha and would say, if anything, the E8000 was quieter than either, though honestly, none were terribly loud. Re torque being noisy, remember that apart from on the steepest climbs, you really don't need to use the highest torque mode. I spend maybe 80% of my time in ECO mode, 15% in TRAIL and only 5% (maybe less) in BOOST. BOOST actually feels like someone is pushing you up the hill!

 

[Steve Collier]

Hi Tom, I'm in Norway too, Halden actually. I bought a Cannondale with E6000 this summer and I don't find it overly noisy though it is of course audible, so I agree with the comments above about warranty. If you're in the area you can give it a try

 

[TomNO]

Hi Tom, I'm in Norway too, Halden actually. I bought a Cannondale with E6000 this summer and I don't find it overly noisy though it is of course audible, so I agree with the comments above about warranty. If you're in the area you can give it a try

Thanks for the offer, much appreciated, but I live in Oslo area, and am practically never in Halden area.

Really looking forward to them replacing the defective motor, just to see if it improves noise. But I still want a new bike, and am still hesitant to buy a new bike with the same system due to the reasons I mentioned in the beginning - it's an old system, firmware can't be upgraded without special equipment etc. Also, it seems silly to invest in it when E6100 is just around the corner, so, if I were to stick with Shimano, maybe E8000 would make more sense, which is at least a an upgrade over E6000, but I'm just too worried about the noise. It's strange, since the CXs that have passed me are usually much quieter than my STEPS. I thought that maybe I was overloading the little STEPS, I weigh exactly 100kg, with the bike, gear, backpack etc it's about 125-130kg load on the motor. I never use the Eco mode, as it does not provide enough assistance on the hills which there are a lot of on the road I take, I usually use High, however, I have tried using Normal many times, just to see if it improves noise, and there is almost no difference. First I thought that maybe this was normal, especially when going uphill, but then when PWs or CXs slowly overtake me on a steep hill where I hardly can keep the speed at 20km/h, they seem so quiet (but I do actually hear them). And when people say that CXs is supposed to be louder than STEPS E6000, I just can't believe it.

 

[TomNO]

Maybe I just need more torque so that the motor doesn't have to work at 100% all the time, which would in turn improve the noise? Maybe 50nm for that weight and topography is not optimal? I clearly have too little experience with these things, this is the only e-bike I have ever used. I guess it's a bit different in most parts of the UK, but here where I live, I have constant hills as soon as I leave my house, there are practically no flats between my house and my workplace, it's constant up- and downhills.

 

[GLJoe]

I prefer high cadence with low load,

Can you define "high cadence".

What range do you normally spin at?

 

[MikeS]

Bosch don't seem to me to be recommending the ActiveLine Plus for your situation - beautifully quiet though it is. The diagram on this page shows the terrain they think it's aimed at https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/products/active-line-plus/
From your description it sounds like you need the CX range (if Bosch). I think this also has the boost-from-standstill feature that is definitely lacking on my ActiveLine Plus.
Having said that - I'm going to do the C2C through the Pennines but I accept that I'm going to have to work quite hard as well. (Couldn't even dream of it without some kind of e-help)
Mke

 

[Trevormonty]

If you are always using E6000 on High in climbs then 60-80nm motor is better option.
E6100 is E600 replacement 50nm? while E7000 is 60nm more detuned E8000.

The one big advantage of CX drive is huge choice of bikes that have it.

 

[TomNO]

Can you define "high cadence".

What range do you normally spin at?

I try to keep steady 90 rpm, and do some intervals at 110rpm. Maybe not something you would call all that high in the cycling world, but it's definitely higher than most folks on e-bikes I see on the roads here do. I have looked at some torque charts, and it seems that Yamaha is the worst for this cadence range, so I'm not considering them.

 

[TomNO]

If you are always using E6000 on High in climbs then 60-80nm motor is better option.
E6100 is E600 replacement 50nm? while E7000 is 60nm more detuned E8000.

The one big advantage of CX drive is huge choice of bikes that have it.

I used to use Normal a lot more before, but then got a bit lazy and switched to High, as it's just about as loud anyway, it's easier to maintain speed on hills and I still get a good workout, so why not.

E6100 is 60nm, so is E7000. But these are upcoming units, and I don't want to wait that long, so from the current units, it's either 50nm or 70-75nm.

For Bosch, I would consider one of these bikes:

Cube Acid Hybrid Allroad One 400 2018 (Active Plus)

or

Cube Cross Hybrid Pro 400 2018 (CX)

The CX is only about 100GBP more. but I'm worried about the small, geared chainring, and the reliability of the CX. I have heard they have, or at least used to have, problems with bearings and what not. Also, I pedal without assist quite a lot, and, as I understand, CX is one of the worst units to pedal without assist. So I have been a bit sceptic about the CX, although it appears to be the "industry standard".

 

[soundwave]

you can have 13t to 20t size wise on the front tho i have 18t and 20t dual.

you get two years warranty if the bearings do cause a problem but you can now buy a pair for 30 quid on ebay and a pdf how to install them.

i run a dongle but never had a problem with my motor and i ramp the crap out of it.

 

[TomNO]

Bosch don't seem to me to be recommending the ActiveLine Plus for your situation - beautifully quiet though it is. The diagram on this page shows the terrain they think it's aimed at https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/products/active-line-plus/
From your description it sounds like you need the CX range (if Bosch). I think this also has the boost-from-standstill feature that is definitely lacking on my ActiveLine Plus.
Mke

I assume Shimano would say the same thing about the E6000, which has served me well. I believe I could live with Active Plus, but what I'm worried about is whether or not it's a downgrade from E6000 (purely power wise). I don't have any traffic lights on the way to work, so there aren't many stop-start situations, so I can live without the boost from standstill feature.
I just wish they made the Active Plus 60nm, and the regular Active 50nm. The upcoming E6100 is lighter, more compact and more powerful than Active Plus. It would be nice to have something in the middle between 50nm and 70-75nm from other brands too.

 

[MikeS]

FWIW - I think Bosch are being conservative in their claims for what their kit can do - quite refreshing really. I'm getting 70-75 miles range from my Active plus and Bosch claim only about 40 miles (which might be the case if you never went over 15.5 miles an hour and never switched the assist off, but I am no cyclist and I find pedalling the Plus very pleasant in the off-mode (or at 18mph on the flat). And it does climb hills pretty well - it did the 4.5 miles up Hartside without me going into Turbo mode and it used about 30% of the battery (1400 ft climb). However, I really really had to work hard to keep the cadence going up the shorter Garrigill hill in bottom gear but it is a 20% slope.
Mike

 

[Skippy]

I have looked at some torque charts, and it seems that Yamaha is the worst for this cadence range, so I'm not considering them.

The latest version of the Yamaha PW-X now supports cadence rates of up to 120. Unlike the Yamaha, the Bosch motor is internally geared which means once you reach the cut off point its harder to pedal on your own steam.