Which bike to choose??

[jaycat]

Hi,

I'm looking to buy my first electric bike, although it has to be secondhand. I am looking at a couple at the moment, one is Izip Trailz ST, the other is a Powercycle Windsor Electric bike.

I have major knee problems and will be unable to use any pedal power. I use to cycle everywhere, but unfortunately that's not possible now. So it has to be proficient as a 'twist and go' bike.

Does anyone have any experience of either of the bikes I have mentioned please? The first has a lead battery, whilst the second has a lithium battery, I really don't mind either, but would appreciate any advice.

I have been advised that neither will be powerful enough if I can't peddle..thoughts please would be gratefully accepted. (It doesn't have to carry too much weight as I'm only 9st.)

Many thanks, J

 

[JuicyBike]

Hi Jaycat
How tall are you?
What sort of journeys will you make on the bike (Distance Hills etc.)?
Where abouts will you be using the bike?

Even though you are buying second hand you should still be able to try these two bikes and someone here should be able to direct you to your nearest E-Bike shop...

From the choice of two go for the lithium, but if you can, try it first on a long journey (10 + Miles). Even Lithium batteries age and if not looked-after properly can be little better than lead-acid.

 

[jaycat]

Hi,

thanks for your reply. I'm 5' 7". Journeys will only be up to 8/10 mile round trips. All within a city which is flat, apart from going over 1 railway bridge; which I could push over if really necessary!

It would be used prob 4/5 times aweek. I'm in Hampshire if that helps you with dealer information.

Thanks J.

 

[JuicyBike]

Are you brave enough to venture over to Bristol?
You could try
Atmosphere Electric Bikes (West)
137 St Georges Rd, Hotwells,
BRISTOL, BS1 5UW
01179 087153
Who stock a good range and are members of the British Electric Bike Association (BEBA).

Good luck!

 

[jaycat]

Ah, that's a fair way, I'm on the coast and don't drive.

What is your opinion re height/weight/distance I'll be travelling?

Thanks, J

 

[allen-uk]

Hello Jaycat.

Well, your weight is on your side at least.

But NO pedalling at all? That is one TALL order, by any stretch.

Can you push your budget to an electric scooter rather than a bike? Just strikes me that you are trying to mix two imcompatible things here - ebikes are designed to be pedalled, with electric assistance, not to be ridden solely on the throttle.

Electric scooters are a different kettle of fish. Heavier machines, heavier batteries, but you should get 40+ miles out of a decent one.

Allen.

 

[Old Timer]

Hi,

I'm looking to buy my first electric bike, although it has to be secondhand. I am looking at a couple at the moment, one is Izip Trailz ST, the other is a Powercycle Windsor Electric bike.

I have major knee problems and will be unable to use any pedal power. I use to cycle everywhere, but unfortunately that's not possible now. So it has to be proficient as a 'twist and go' bike.

Does anyone have any experience of either of the bikes I have mentioned please? The first has a lead battery, whilst the second has a lithium battery, I really don't mind either, but would appreciate any advice.

I have been advised that neither will be powerful enough if I can't peddle..thoughts please would be gratefully accepted. (It doesn't have to carry too much weight as I'm only 9st.)

Many thanks, J

For sure from what I`ve read the Windsor won`t be very good for you.

One of my bikes is the 350Watt Aurora and that would definitely fit the bill but it might be some time before you find one second hand and of course it is illegal at 350Watt ( although it ain`t exactly the crime of the century to ride one)
The other option would be to convert a cheapish 2nd hand MTB with something like a street legal Alien kit. On the flat that would pull you along at between 18-20mph.

 

[jaycat]

Hi, I've decided to take your advice and go and try some out. I'm off to Southampton to look in 2 electric bike shops this afternoon. I'll let you know how I get on.

Thanks for all your advice it has been really helpful, J

 

[HittheroadJ]

I have a Meerkat (a re-branded IZIP Trails Al you mentioned).

I do not think I can recommend using it as a moped for the types of distances you mentioned.

It does well as a pedal-assist on a 4.5 miles commute (9 miles daily with frequent added mileage for shopping etc..). I have found that the Assist allows you to use very light pedalling at lower speeds, I'm not sure how bad your knees are but you may give that a try.

On the flat it does pull quite strongly at low speeds, but a strong headwind or hill would do you in.

I do remember reading in AtoB reviews on the venerable old PowaBykes that they can conceivably be used as Mopeds. They are old-technology (SLA) and heavy like the IZIP but they have a good reputation for reliability and a support-network.

Battery life could be quite poor if you plan to use a bike as a moped.

Good luck.

 

[allen-uk]

Jaycat.

If they let you loose on a bike for a testride, then find a HILL, and see how it performs on throttle only. But as hittheroadj hints above, be prepared to be disappointed. These bikes are NOT designed to be electric mopeds.

Perhaps you can pedal a little, in spite of your knees; that would help.

Here is a link to JuicyBikes' scooters. I know they're a different animal, and probably way over your budget, but I think they might be what you need - and if you could find a second-hand one, it would be half the price.

Juicy Bike Retro: stylish electric scooter

(I do understand about the knee problem: I have one leg, and a dodgy 'good' leg and knee. Stumpi, another correspondent here, is in a similar position, and hopefully he might pop in and give an answer to your question, too).


Allen.

 

[flecc]

Jaycat, so much depends on what you need to climb, no definitive answer can be given without knowing that, but as others have indicated, e-bikes are generally not powerful enough for non-pedalling use.

If you live in a not very hilly region and the steepest hill you'll encounter is a 10% (1 in 10), a few of the most powerful models will just manage that with your moderate weight without you pedalling.

If you need to tackle 14% (1 in 7) or thereabouts, you need a peak power of around 1000 watts even to climb slowly, and beyond that steepness pro rata. Such peak powers don't come on legally rated 200 and 250 watt motors, the Powabykes mentioned above used to have a 700 watt peak but I think they've changed the motor since.

These are generalisations for full size wheel bikes from both experience and calculations. Small wheel bikes have a mechanical climb advantage and can do better, for example a 20" wheel bike will manage a 14% hill slowly with your 9 stones using a 750 watt peak, three quarters of what a 26" wheel bike needs.
.

 

[tangent]

If you live in a not very hilly region and the steepest hill you'll encounter is a 10% (1 in 10), a few of the most powerful models will just manage that with your moderate weight without you pedalling.

If you need to tackle 14% (1 in 7) or thereabouts, you need a peak power of around 1000 watts even to climb slowly, and beyond that steepness pro rata.

Not sure I agree with this. The key here is jaycat's low weight of 9st - about 57kg. Assuming a bike and battery weight of 23kg, this makes 80kg total. To climb a 10% hill at 10mph (4.44 m/s) implies a lifting rate of 0.444m/s. 80kg is 784 Newtons, and the power required to lift 784 Newtons at 0.444m/s is 348W. Even allowing for efficiency losses and the power required to maintain the horizontal component of the speed I would have thought it perfectly possible for Jaycat to get up a 10% hill at 10mph with a 500W (peak power) hub motor bike. Furthermore a 36V 10Ah battery should last about 40 minutes with a power draw of 500W.

A 14% slope would require 488W just for the vertical lift of 80kg at 10mph, but only 341W at 7mph.

All of this is theoretical of course. I have no idea about hub motor efficiency at 10mph so I am totally ready to be corrected on the feasibility of this based on people's practical experiences.

 

[flecc]

I agree with that theory, but mine is the practical experience of living in a very hilly area at personal weights of 10 to 11 stones over time, plus the theoretical knowledge of course.

In practice an eZee Torq 1 bike with 700c wheels and 700 watts of peak power will miserably fail to climb 10% and even gradually grind to a halt on a 7% with 10 stones. I've chosen this as a worst example to show how much more there is to this matter than pure theory. In the case of this bike it's due to the overgearing of the motor used, geared to achieve 22 mph top speed. Therefore the peak power is not achieved due to the bike slowing on hills with the overgearing and dropping well below peak.

The identical motor/controller/battery combination in the eZee Quando which has 20" wheels and therefore geared much lower with around 16 mph top speed copes quite comfortably with those same conditions.

There are many variations in gearing on today's models, for example Wisper gear their SB motor in the 905se for about 18/19 mph and limit via the controller, so climbing is not optimised for it's 550 watts. Other bikes are reported by members as being similar. In contrast, the Powacycle Salisbury/Windsor models with only just over 300 watt peak available nevertheless climb reasonable simply because their motor is lowish geared and is slow to rise from 13 to 15 mph, optimising their limited power for climbing.

And of course quoted personal weight is not the whole story, clothing weight varies through the year and there's sometimes requirements to carry items or a spare battery.

These are the things I've borne in mind when advising, since a poor purchase is an expensive mistake, hence my conservatism.
.

 

[tangent]

Yes, I think it boils down to choice of motor and effective gearing, which is a very hard thing to determine when buying a bike. Brushless motors, which I assume is what are used in electric bikes, vary in efficiency from zero when stalled to in excess of 85% at optimal torque and angular velocity. Your eZee Torq 1 may have been happily consuming 700W of electrical power but would have been producing decreasing mechanical power until it reached zero when it finally ground to a halt. I would hope there would be something in the controller to detect what was happening and to reduce the input power to prevent the motor windings from melting. (Do controllers do this?)

By the sound of it the ezee Quando and other 20" wheel bikes are ideal for someone in hilly areas and does not want to pedal much. The Sunlova folder I had for a few days shot up a 10% hill. I was very surprised at how well it did this.

I suppose that the best option would be a bike with a crank motor and throttle so that the gearing could be changed to keep the motor running closer to optimal motor efficiency as the load requirements changed. Not many of those about yet unfortuneately.

I am rambling a bit, but looking at the numbers it is interesting to see how electric bike restrictions disadvantage people as weight increases.

 

[flecc]

Yes, crank drives are potentially ideal for these situations to avoid pedalling, but sadly most are pedelecs so have to be pedalled anyway. Worse still, some supply power as a ratio of rider effort so are less useful for the weaker pedalling person.

And as you say, e-bikes hugely disadvantage the heavy. Since the unfit are often heavy in conjunction with the unfitness, they suffer a double whammee.

P.S. I think the controller may protect in the way you mention, but the eZee bikes protection in stall situations is provided by the low voltage cutout when the battery fails to deliver enough current. That said, the SB motor on the Torq 1 withstands stall situations without cooking, probably since it can run on 48 or even 72 volt systems and the Torq only has 36 volts.
.

 

[jaycat]

Hi everyone, ok to answer some of your questions; I live in Portsmouth a very flat town, apart from a railway bridge that I would need to climb. Not s humpback, but a gradual climb. I really can't work out the gradient-sorry! (But I'm looking net for the answer!)

Went and saw some bikes, and was totally taken with the one that I tried:

LifeCycle Alpine Sport

Boy does it shift!! I needed to peddle 2 revolutions to start, and then gently, not putting any pressure on the peddles, most of the time. It also has a throttle mode, if I had problems on the return journey.

It was way over my budget, but...it was great being able to cycle again, without too much pain. I have had 1 knee op, and when I saw my consultant last week he said there was nothing he could do to improve them, and I'm way too young for replacements.

So, we, my partner and myself are seriously looking into how we could possibly afford it. (As long as the pain in my knees subsides, but that could have been because I had been standing for quite a while beforehand.)

I would go back and retry it, when I was not already in pain.

The electric scooter that you gave me the link for needs me to have a CBT, which for other reasons I cannot obtain. Thanks anyway.

So, now I'd like to ask your views on this bike, the others were just not powerful enough to allow me not to peddle with some force. The chap was very knowledgeable and has one himself; he was adament it would handle the terrain that I would be using it for. What would your opinions be please.

Thanks so much for all your views and comments, they have been very helpful so far,

J.

 

[Xcytronex]

That's one of the best looking step thru bikes I have seen !!

 

[flecc]

That Izip model your mentioned earlier I wouldn't bother with anyway, the same name and model designation applies to all sorts of variants, some steel framed, some alloy, some with very heavy lead acid batteries. Difficult to know what you are getting. The Windsor is definitely out.

That Lifecycle is a new entry and as such an unknown, The hype about the motor being exclusive to them will be the usual nonsense that many claim, but it probably is easily powerful enough for you. However you can buy well known brands at that sort of price, powerful ones too.

Most of the makes using the Suzhou Bafang hub motors will do the job in that Portsmouth area, particularly those with 36 volt systems rather than the 24 volt ones. I'm familiar with the higher price brands but there are a number of suitable bikes nearer your price band that others may be able to advise on.

Perhaps you could let us know roughly your upper price limit? If you don't mind a folding 20" wheel bike which is quite big nonetheless, the eZee Quando will run you around at 15/16 mph everywhere and sail over that bridge with ease, hardly slowing. £1250 if you can stretch that far, and if the same spec as my one, you don't need to pedal at all, not even when setting off. Just twist and go, with quick acceleration too.

From a performance point of view you won't need to try it, it will blow you away. You'd just need to check it still has throttle only mode.
.

 

[jaycat]

Hi,

to be honest the budget was half the price of that bike at the very most!! However I'm not sure how realistic that was now in retrospect. No offence at all, but I can't see myself on a folding bike, just personal preference.

Does anyone know of any other good shops around the Hampshire area? The second one we went to was appaling. One young guy who was not interested at all and did not even offer a test ride, after the first shop being so very helpful I was annoyed by his lack of interest and knowledge. I would definately put anyone off going to them.

The battery on the one I saw was locked at the bottom as well as the top, I thought this was important as I have read that the power can cut out on some bikes as you go over a bump.

A twist and go would be ideal by the way. Guess we need to look around more shops if possible to get an idea of what's on the market.

J.

 

[allen-uk]

There ARE ways of helping your knees when pedalling, Jaycat.

http://www.kneesaver.net/

I use these. They extend the pedals outwards by 30mm, which means you can pedal with your foot at an angle (unlike ordinary bikes, where you are forced into a straight foot position, good for pedalling, bad for dodgy knees).

Not sure whether you can get them in the UK (that's a US site), but I bought them from that place, and their postage to London wasn't too bad.

And on the bike front, you DEFINITELY need a bike which will get you moving on THROTTLE only, even if you can then pedal it. Very few bikes (except Kalkhoffs) come without a twist throttle.

Allen.