Which bike for off-road?

[eTim]

Looking at the vast array of ebikes on the market, most appear to be aimed at the road or leisure market and it's not clear which bikes would be more suitable for off-road activities.

Some leisure bikes appear to have occasional off-road capability because the frame and components can handle rough tracks, canal paths and bridleways, but what if you wanted to do more than occasional off-road?

Just about the only bike I have been able to find that fit's into this category would be the Folding Paratrooper such as this Montague Paratrooper 24 Speed Folding Electric Bike could the Wisper 906xc fall into this category? Does anyone have any other suggestions?

I want to keep this to legal bikes only - my definition of off-road includes bridleways and tracks that still have the law of the road applied to them, unlike the commonly used marketing term that some suppliers apply to bikes that can be de-restricted and then used for 'off-road' use only, there's no such thing. A bike illegal on the road could only be used on private land legally and should be marketed for private land use only (not 'off-road' use only).

 

[eddieo]

I think you have identified one of the best bikes for this in the paratrooper, although it can be fitted with different kits........My favourite is the 350 watt BionX

The front hub 906xc may be OK as well, but a kit with battery in triangle fitted to dual suspension bike would be a better bet IMO

 

[matt-derby]

off road

The paratrooper E mountain bike is a great ride, should be at Presteigne this year! Hill path in the trees towards the English border if you manage to go.

This is a nice on too.. BikeTec - X-Serie.  

 

[1967geezer]

I always wince when I see a huge weight sticking 18 inches out from the bottom of the seat post, there must be a big strain placed on the thing when riding on rough tracks. A small strut down to the rear axle would help enormously.

 

[eTim]

The Flyer X series looks v.nice, but at euro4600 + options I think it might be a bit out of my price league. The paratrooper is around £1,700 with a heinzmann conversion already installed, which is not a bad price.

I already have a full susser MTB in the form of a Marin Attack Trail, I wonder if the Bionx kit would fit that, I'm not sure there is room on the frame as it's a wierd shape, do they do a kit for disc brakes ? As for keeping it legal

Picture of Marin below:

 

[flecc]

No hub motor bike is really ideal for off road since the motor is directly exposed to all the shocks. This is particularly true of motors with spindle entry cables due to their weakened hollow spindles. Battery mountings are also often not up to withstanding impacts, and that even goes for centrally mounted ones like those on Wisper, eZee etc. Here's a photo of a shattered eZee battery platform, and this was only done when crossing a speed bump:

Best for off road are any of the bikes with the Panasonic centrally mounted motor unit and battery, like the Flyer X series. However, even with those it's advisable to slightly modify the battery platform since they can suffer damaged contacts due to battery movement. Details on this and how to carry out the alteration are on my "Panasonic" website on this link.
.

 

[eTim]

Thanks Flecc, I noticed in various threads that you recommend the Panasonic system for hill torque which would be most suitable to off-roading, you also thought the E-motion Cross/Cross Deluxe would be a good off-road machine, they are at a reasonable price, are there any others in this range?

Looks like the Marin will stay for days when I want to go extreme singletrack

 

[flecc]

Yes, those Emotion bikes are ideal at more reasonable prices than the Flyers, and among Panasonic unit bikes only certain Kalkhoff models also use derailleur gears. I think these gears are best for the rough stuff since the gearchange pauses on low speed climbs that hub gears can need aren't ideal.

These "drive through the gears" bikes can climb virtually anything, including at the low speeds some difficult surfaces can demand, something which hub motors are very poor at.
.

 

[Andrew harvey]

All the Bionx motors accept disc brakes. Road legal would mean the 250w version.
I wouldn't class bridal paths as needing full suspension, so any e-bike stripped and fitted with the right tyres should do, providing the motors properly geared for low speed.
The Panasonic system bikes need you to pedal relatively slowly for maximium power, in the mud off road, or just on sandy tracks, that means you need a good pair of knees as you will be standing on the pedals up hills.
I've managed some fair trails on a front hub motor in the dry, but you need to balance the weight to keep traction, leaning forward on climbs, but not so far that the rear wheel spins.
For more demanding of road, the sort that Steve who builds the Paratroppers hits, full sus is an advantage. There should be no reason that a well built hub motor should be weaker in this envoiroment than a normal bike hub. taking the battery of the frame is the best option for serious off road, as is the throttle option, giving much better speed control.
The secret with hub motored bikes is to reduce the power as the bike slows, this seems wrong at first, but what you are actualy doing is lowering the speed at which the power is produced. last summer I took a 50 mile hill tour on a pretty well worn out battery pack, it's now useless, using under half throttle on the hills I was making some long climbs at 5 to 7 mph without the motor humming under load. This hub motor had a no load speed of 34mph so it wasn't ideal for the job, I was I confess being very frugal with the throttle at all times.
At £1700 the Paratropper is a bit of a steal, the Heinzman kit is worth a grand and the bike itself used to sell for not far short of one. Steve at Electric Mountain bikes should be able to do you a kit for your Marin, with a plug on the motor cable by the wheel you'ld be able to swap wheels when you wanted.
As for Chineese kits I almost agree with Flecc, some of the hollow axled motors are small gauge but many have 12mm axles, The SWXK motors are my current favorite as they use solid axles with side entry cables, with sensorless controllers they make a very robust package, slightly down on power compared with the old mark 1 Torque motors, they still make good hill climbers with a 35 amp controller, but they still perform well with only 20 amps. For extra hill climbing ability, if you don't need high top speed you can stick a 700c geared motor into a 26" wheel.

 

[daniel.weck]

The SWXK motors are my current favorite as they use solid axles with side entry cables, with sensorless controllers they make a very robust package, slightly down on power compared with the old mark 1 Torque motors, they still make good hill climbers with a 35 amp controller, but they still perform well with only 20 amps. For extra hill climbing ability, if you don't need high top speed you can stick a 700c geared motor into a 26" wheel.

I've just resumed cycling after quite a few weeks off the road. The 255rpm SWXK motor on my Brompton (small 16" wheels) is a marvelous puller up the hills. Sure, I always provide a good amount of pedal power, but given how unfit I was today, those 15km riding up and down gradients felt surprisingly easy The peak ampere indicated by the Cycle Analyst remains below 15A, something like 12 Amps max whilst climbing (approx. 400W). I'm sure the motor could draw more current, and I could easily reprogram the controller's thresholds...but to be honest I'm happy as it is now. The small wheel size probably helps a lot to achieve the climbing performance with so little battery consumption.

Cheers, Dan

 

[DWiskow]

I regularly ride a Kalkhoff Agattu (diamond frame) off road on bridleways and tracks together with my wife on her horse. I have done this for the last year or two and have seen no issues with the bike.

I find that I have to hose the mud off after a days ride and I found that the standard tyres just didn't work well particularly going uphill (especially when wet and slightly muddy). More than once the front end has drifted out resulting in me coming off and I also found the back wheel frequently spinning uphill.

As a result, I fitted these . . . Schwalbe - Marathon Plus ATB . . . the same old Marathon Plus (including SmartGuard), but with a more suitable All Terrain tread. I also fitted Schwalbe Inner Tubes with 40mm schraeder Valves at the same time.

Pretty simple to fit, although you do need to make sure the tyre bead is well seated . . . and I had to use tyre levers for the last few inches.

Handling seems to be absolutely fine and off road is much improved . . . I have just recently had my first puncture though (a thorn worked through the MP ATB Protection).

 

[eTim]

Thinking some more on this subject (dangerous I know) - I was incorrect about the price of the Montague Paratrooper including the higher capacity (9.6ah) battery and for comparison with other machines the price would be approx £2,200.

I have gone off the idea of converting the Marin at the moment as I would like to keep it for non-powered days out.

I don't know if anyone has seen the youtube vid of the Paratrooper YouTube - Electric Paratrooper Mountain Bike Demo this is the kind of bridleway that I am referring to, certainly not boulder strewn mountain track, but steep, slippery and muddy enough to provide a challenge for any bike. I'm guessing the video was taken in Yorks, but we have some steep equivalent tracks down here in Hampshire and they are all classed as bridleways.

So with ref to the terrain in the video, does anyone have any experience on the branded bikes in this kind of terrain? Given the correct tyres, ie nobblies, would something like the Pro Connect, Wisper 906xc, Emotion Cross or something along the same lines be capable?

 

[eTim]

I think you have identified one of the best bikes for this in the paratrooper, although it can be fitted with different kits........My favourite is the 350 watt BionX

Eddie, I had a go on a Trek powered Bionx the other day, I noticed that it has an intelligent assist that (I believe) is linked to the amount of torque the rider inputs to the pedals, how would this system fare on steep muddy tracks, is there an off-road setting?

 

[Andrew harvey]

The simple answer is yes and no.
There is no off road switch as such, but it is possible to alter the speed limit setting. You just have to have the right 4 digit code, but I can't remember what it is, it's posted on 'V is for Voltage'.

Found the instructions,
Press and hold the mode and chrono buttons for about three seconds
The display should show four zeros. Use the a-key to change the first numeral to a 3.
Use the mode key to get to the next numeral.
Repeat until the code entered his 3773. At this point, the display should show Max alternating with Speed on the LCD. The number displayed should be 1. Use the g-key to change this to a zero. Use the mode key to get out of the menu. .

The power out put is indeed torque dependant, but it is the best torque system I've come across.
Why? Well the sensor is in the back wheel not on the crank, so the system feels the torque applied to the wheel itself not the pedals. The second best system .ie. the Panasonic, needs you to be in a higher gear than you might want to be and pedalling firmly because it is sensing the torque applied to the pedals. The effect of the difference is that you can get the same assistance levels with the Bionx pedalling slow in high gear or fast in a low gear, which my knees and lungs now insist upon.
The big disadvantage with the Bionx is limited range if you use it with a throttle.
They do manage well of road, I've seen Steve's video on U tube they can manage the same sort of conditions nicely, but they are not as suitable for full suspension bikes as the control wires pass through the battery via a multipin plug, It's only a D shell type but might need an extension cable for remote battery locations.
I've being trying to upload an image of one we built earlier, but the system keeps asking me for ,a URL? Can anyone tell me how to stick a picture in a post, Please?

 

[NRG]

Andrew, either attach it directly to your post with the 'manage attachments' option in the advanced posting window or upload it to a hosting site (photobucket) and cut n paste the URL into your post...

 

[eTim]

The simple answer is yes and no.
There is no off road switch as such, but it is possible to alter the speed limit setting. You just have to have the right 4 digit code, but I can't remember what it is, it's posted on 'V is for Voltage'.

Found the instructions,
Press and hold the mode and chrono buttons for about three seconds
The display should show four zeros. Use the a-key to change the first numeral to a 3.
Use the mode key to get to the next numeral.
Repeat until the code entered his 3773. At this point, the display should show Max alternating with Speed on the LCD. The number displayed should be 1. Use the g-key to change this to a zero. Use the mode key to get out of the menu. .

The power out put is indeed torque dependant, but it is the best torque system I've come across.
Why? Well the sensor is in the back wheel not on the crank, so the system feels the torque applied to the wheel itself not the pedals. The second best system .ie. the Panasonic, needs you to be in a higher gear than you might want to be and pedalling firmly because it is sensing the torque applied to the pedals. The effect of the difference is that you can get the same assistance levels with the Bionx pedalling slow in high gear or fast in a low gear, which my knees and lungs now insist upon.
The big disadvantage with the Bionx is limited range if you use it with a throttle.
They do manage well of road, I've seen Steve's video on U tube they can manage the same sort of conditions nicely, but they are not as suitable for full suspension bikes as the control wires pass through the battery via a multipin plug, It's only a D shell type but might need an extension cable for remote battery locations.
I've being trying to upload an image of one we built earlier, but the system keeps asking me for ,a URL? Can anyone tell me how to stick a picture in a post, Please?

Thanks for the write-up, I like the fact that you can customise the power to a certain extent to match your type of riding. The torque sensor makes more sense when sensing torque at the back wheel, I've heard that the panasonic system can be a bit counter-intuitive, from what I've read you need to pedal slower to get more assist!

So this now raises the question of who makes Bionx fitted bikes as a package? The Trek is the first one I've seen but it must weigh somewhere between 25-30Kg's being a steel frame which is way too heavy for off-road use! The trek wasn't fitted with a throttle (I didn't notice it on my short test ride) but was auto powered which felt very good.

Possibly the Paratrooper/Bionx would be the way to go ?

 

[Fecn]

I regularly ride a Kalkhoff Agattu (diamond frame) off road on bridleways and tracks together with my wife on her horse. I have done this for the last year or two and have seen no issues with the bike.

I find that I have to hose the mud off after a days ride and I found that the standard tyres just didn't work well particularly going uphill (especially when wet and slightly muddy). More than once the front end has drifted out resulting in me coming off and I also found the back wheel frequently spinning uphill.

Snap!!! My Diamond Frame Agattu has done 18 months of mainly-off-road now with no issues. I changed the tyres to Continental Travel Contacts as they had some knobbly bits on the sides to get me through the mud and I've added an extra battery to extend the range. The only real problem I get is that the close-fitting mudguards and V-brakes on the Agattu tend to get clogged up if you ride through clay+leaves. I too just hose the bike down when it comes back from a ride. I've never had any kind of problem with the electricals on the bike. Battery does not rattle even after 18 months.

I don't know if anyone has seen the youtube vid of the Paratrooper YouTube - Electric Paratrooper Mountain Bike Demo this is the kind of bridleway that I am referring to, certainly not boulder strewn mountain track, but steep, slippery and muddy enough to provide a challenge for any bike. I'm guessing the video was taken in Yorks, but we have some steep equivalent tracks down here in Hampshire and they are all classed as bridleways.

That track looks like a no-problem sort of track to me. My general attitude is that if I could walk it, I can ride it without getting my feet dirty. I can try and shoot a video of up-the-side-of-the-north-downs-through-the-mud if you like.

 

[eddieo]

Even the carbon flyer is 23 kg. no e bike will be light, but a kit on a quality bike should come out well under 20 kg. the new wisper kit should be of interest.....Matra of France make BionX powered bikes the i step is one

MATRA i Step - Essai Vae

 

[Gepida uk]

Looking at the vast array of ebikes on the market, most appear to be aimed at the road or leisure market and it's not clear which bikes would be more suitable for off-road activities.

Some leisure bikes appear to have occasional off-road capability because the frame and components can handle rough tracks, canal paths and bridleways, but what if you wanted to do more than occasional off-road?

Just about the only bike I have been able to find that fit's into this category would be the Folding Paratrooper such as this Montague Paratrooper 24 Speed Folding Electric Bike could the Wisper 906xc fall into this category? Does anyone have any other suggestions?

I want to keep this to legal bikes only - my definition of off-road includes bridleways and tracks that still have the law of the road applied to them, unlike the commonly used marketing term that some suppliers apply to bikes that can be de-restricted and then used for 'off-road' use only, there's no such thing. A bike illegal on the road could only be used on private land legally and should be marketed for private land use only (not 'off-road' use only).

Hi eTim,
My name is Aidan from Gepida UK, Our new MTB bike is being launched in the UK in March and is a great bike to use for off road, it uses the Yamaha Crank driven motor and battery and is equipped with an 8 speed Shimano Nexus hub gear & RST front suspension forks, it’s worth a test ride


http://www.gepidaelectricbikes.co.uk/new_images/attachments_20_10_2009/MTB Gepida.jpg

 

[eTim]

Hi eTim,
My name is Aidan from Gepida UK, Our new MTB bike is being launched in the UK in March and is a great bike to use for off road, it uses the Yamaha Crank driven motor and battery and is equipped with an 8 speed Shimano Nexus hub gear & RST front suspension forks, it’s worth a test ride


http://www.gepidaelectricbikes.co.uk/new_images/attachments_20_10_2009/MTB Gepida.jpg

Hi Aiden - thanks for the info, what are the specs and price of this bike? Where will a test ride be available, March isn't too far off, what guarantee do you provide.

Thanks, Tim.