Which Bike Advice Please

[PED-AL]

Hello everyone - This is my first post and I am new to electric or Battery bicycles. I have read a lot of reveiws and gathered some information but am still unsure of the solution for my requirements. I intend to use an electric bike for pleasure only riding light off road / trail type rides at a steady pace following the routes as found in many books. I will transport the bike (bikes) in the back of a people carrier to the particular area that my wife and I are going to ride.
I have a serious back disability and so need some help with the hills and also need the most comfortable ride I can get. I have just bought a Powacycle Salisbury as a starting point soley to see if I can ride a bicycle again if assisted as I have not ridden for the last eight years (due to many back operations and procedures to relieve my pain a little).
Also for my wife to try to see how she finds riding with assistance.
I have ridden the bike for approximately ten miles and I am pleased with the result to an extent in that the assistance seems to solve my problem with hill climbing and my wife also likes the bionic feeling.
I am now intending to buy higher quality/specification bicycles as I find the Salisbury ( although terrific value for money ) difficult for me to get comfortable on and pedal easily because of the frame size/proportions, fork movement control, crank length, seat and seat pin quality, handlebar grips etc.
I am not pulling the salisbury to pieces as I think it is a terrific machine for the price for a normal rider which unfortunately I am not.
I have today ridden the Kalkhoff agattu for a couple of miles and am very impressed with the quality and comfort this bicycle and am seriously considering ordering one each for my wife and myself.
I do have a small concern about the 700c wheels (non eyeletted ) and the standard fitted tyres for trail use but otherwise it seemed to be very comfortable.
I would like look at the Izip Trialz enlightened , trekking Li or any other bicycle that anyone could suggest or recommend for my type of riding before I make my purchase ( or not if advised against ).
All suggestion and advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanking you in anticipation - PED-AL

 

[Phil the drill]

Hi Al
The most important thing about choosing an ebike is finding the one that suits you! The only way to find that out is to try them out first. If you like the Kalkhoff and it suits you, go for it, they look like great bikes (I have seen, but never tried them myself). You could consider the Wisper models, 905se (or 705se if you want a step through), I have got experience of the 905se and it suits me to a tee. With bikes though, like cars, clothes etc., it's 'horses for courses' and it's really important that you try before you buy. Then just go for the one you like best !
Phil

 

[PED-AL]

Thanks for your reply Phil.
I do not know much about the Wisper 905E and do not know where I could get a look at one without travelling to far from Oakham. I held off buying the Kalkhoff because there a few things that concern me and I do not know enough about bicycles in general yet to take the plunge with that sort of money. I think the bicycle that I need for soley trail/track use would have a different specification to most of the ones I read about. These are some of the points that are important to me in random order. 1) Supple front forks. 2) Free moving supple seat post. 3) comfortable saddle. 4) A headset. 5) Sealed bottom bracket. 6) eyeletted wheel rims. 7) Punctureproof Trail tyres. 8) 175mm Cranks. 9) Quick release front wheel. (10 Eight speed hub for good gear range. 11) No hub dynamo or lights. 12) Mudguards. 13) Chainguard. 14) Good quality non chinese diamond frame (unsure about size). 15) "V" brakes for simplicity. 16) Thumb gearshifter not twist change. 17) Crank or rear hub motor. 18) Rear rack. 19) Side stand. 20) Removeable Lithium battery. 21) Small charger to carry on bicycle. 22) Min 30 mile range with light assistance. - A tall order I know.
The nearest bicycle I have found is the Kalkhoff Pro Connect S 9G Diore XT which would need a change of seat and post and a raised handlebar stem with raised bars, - I would need deep pockets !!! especially as I also need one for my wife.
I do not need the bicycles untill the spring so I have plenty of time .
Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[essexman]

Hi,

I'm a very pleased Kalkhoff owner and i think you will find it the most comfortable ride you will find in an electric bike. It has the magic combination of Dutch style upright riding position, with a pair of really good forks on a mtb-esque frame. For rougher terrain you could adjust the headset angle to point down, but that will put pressure on your back. I ride on very rough roads all year round and find it a stately ride whatever the conditions (thats with forks on their hardest setting). The swept back bars, sprung saddle and suspension seat post really add to the ride quality.

I'd suspect the pro connect and other mtbs variants will not have a geometry that suits your back. Off roaders and on roaders will have you leant to far forwards .

re the wheels. 700c is a better size than 26'' as it rolls better over bumps. You could consider getting some bigger off road tyres if you want to. In terms of strength i put some serious loads on my bike and the wheels are still straight and true after 9 months heavy riding. That demonstrates quality to me.

50 cycles are doing a best ever price on the Agattu until 14th Dec!

 

[Mussels]

I would need deep pockets !!!

You will do for that lot, I think you need to be a a bit more flexible and work out what is most important.
4) A headset. - The easiest, whatever you choose will come with a headset.
8) 175mm Cranks. - If 170mm is really too short you have either been riding with 175mm for a long time and/or you are very tall. Being very tall may well limit your choice to the bikes that come in a range of frame sizes.
(10 Eight speed hub for good gear range. More important than number of gears is that the range works with your (and the bikes) cadence at the speeds you want to go.
14) Good quality non chinese diamond frame (unsure about size). - Haha, you want a non Chinese frame? You want a Pashley and deep pockets then.
7) Punctureproof Trail tyres. That's a personal preference and I have no idea what you are thinking of - Marathon Supremes maybe and AFAIK they aren't fitted as standard to anything.
11) No hub dynamo or lights. Usually an option so not something to worry about.
1) Supple front forks. Suspension forks or solid? By supple I'd think of old steel forks.
17) Crank or rear hub motor. That still leaves you qute a wide choice but counts out a lot of kits.
13) Chainguard. How critical is this really?
20) Removeable Lithium battery. Most have that.
15) "V" brakes for simplicity. I'm not sure they are than much more simple than cable disk brakes and if you want to go off road then maybe a disk isn't such a bad thing.
16) Thumb gearshifter not twist change. I think most are.
21) Small charger to carry on bicycle.
22) Min 30 mile range with light assistance. I think most will manage these 2 points but your definition of small may be different to mine, I find lightweight more important.
6) eyeletted wheel rims. If you want V brakes then is this that important, anyway I doubt you'll find it on any ebike.
3) comfortable saddle. Personal preferance.

5) Sealed bottom bracket.
9) Quick release front wheel.
12) Mudguards.
2) Free moving supple seat post.
18) Rear rack.
19) Side stand.
All these are not really important and are either easy aftermarket mods or fitted during servicing.

You seem to be missing some of the more important points like how you want the ride to be (like a moped or a pushbike or in between), how fast you want to ride, how much assistance you require, how much aftersales support you need, how much you want to spend and of course how pretty it is.

 

[PED-AL]

Hello -
Thanks for the reply.
I am still very interested in the Aggatu as it seems to be the only one that you can get a frame with the correct sizeing and goemetry and as far as I can see most of the other are a one size fits all, which cannot be right !! can it ??.
From your experience it seems that the wheels are well up to the job and that eyeletted rims are not necessary.

The Q.R. front wheel is not possible on the kalkhoff I am told and so would just need to carry spanners for removal of the wheel for transportation.

We would need to find a way of changing the twist shifter to thumb change and fit full bar grips and then that is perhaps as near as I am going to get to requirements.

Do I buy the crank motor or the new 2009 front wheel hub version ??

How do I determine which is the correct frame size ? - is there a formula relating to leg length and height.

I am 6' 1'' tall but only have a 31" inside leg (trouser length).

The other machine I am considering is the Wisper 905E but cannot find any frame details or clear specification like the bottom bracket type and wheel quality etc etc.

Any further help and advise would be greatly appreciated

 

[PED-AL]

You will do for that lot, I think you need to be a a bit more flexible and work out what is most important.
4) A headset. - The easiest, whatever you choose will come with a headset.
8) 175mm Cranks. - If 170mm is really too short you have either been riding with 175mm for a long time and/or you are very tall. Being very tall may well limit your choice to the bikes that come in a range of frame sizes.
(10 Eight speed hub for good gear range. More important than number of gears is that the range works with your (and the bikes) cadence at the speeds you want to go.
14) Good quality non chinese diamond frame (unsure about size). - Haha, you want a non Chinese frame? You want a Pashley and deep pockets then.
7) Punctureproof Trail tyres. That's a personal preference and I have no idea what you are thinking of - Marathon Supremes maybe and AFAIK they aren't fitted as standard to anything.
11) No hub dynamo or lights. Usually an option so not something to worry about.
1) Supple front forks. Suspension forks or solid? By supple I'd think of old steel forks.
17) Crank or rear hub motor. That still leaves you qute a wide choice but counts out a lot of kits.
13) Chainguard. How critical is this really?
20) Removeable Lithium battery. Most have that.
15) "V" brakes for simplicity. I'm not sure they are than much more simple than cable disk brakes and if you want to go off road then maybe a disk isn't such a bad thing.
16) Thumb gearshifter not twist change. I think most are.
21) Small charger to carry on bicycle.
22) Min 30 mile range with light assistance. I think most will manage these 2 points but your definition of small may be different to mine, I find lightweight more important.
6) eyeletted wheel rims. If you want V brakes then is this that important, anyway I doubt you'll find it on any ebike.
3) comfortable saddle. Personal preferance.

5) Sealed bottom bracket.
9) Quick release front wheel.
12) Mudguards.
2) Free moving supple seat post.
18) Rear rack.
19) Side stand.
All these are not really important and are either easy aftermarket mods or fitted during servicing.

You seem to be missing some of the more important points like how you want the ride to be (like a moped or a pushbike or in between), how fast you want to ride, how much assistance you require, how much aftersales support you need, how much you want to spend and of course how pretty it is.

As I mentioned I wish to ride with light pedalling at a steady pace - You know what I meant about the Headset !!
- steel forks would not seem the way to go for what I need - I said eight speed for a good range of gears - Good qualiy sealed bottom bracket, chain guard, Q.R. wheel etc etc are important - I was looking for sound advise - This was not helpfull.

 

[Mussels]

Hello -
Thanks for the reply.
I am still very interested in the Aggatu as it seems to be the only one that you can get a frame with the correct sizeing and goemetry and as far as I can see most of the other are a one size fits all, which cannot be right !! can it ??.

I did think that but one size fits all works for most people, you may be just outside the 'most people' bracket though.

From your experience it seems that the wheels are well up to the job and that eyeletted rims are not necessary.

The Q.R. front wheel is not possible on the kalkhoff I am told and so would just need to carry spanners for removal of the wheel for transportation.

The wheels may not be all that durable but I just said I doubt you'd find eyeletted hubs on an ebike. I think most ebikes have suffered from some form of wheel problems due to the motor, the only companies that I know cover it under warranty are 50Cycles (Kalkhoff) and Wisper. You can't have QR with a hub motor, you'll just have to carry an adjustable spanner.

We would need to find a way of changing the twist shifter to thumb change and fit full bar grips and then that is perhaps as near as I am going to get to requirements.

Do I buy the crank motor or the new 2009 front wheel hub version ??

Flecc wrote a bit about front or rear drive and he found rear drive was preferable. The flipside is that front drive may be more practical as you can have a normal bike at the back and whatever gearing you want. Probably if you like to ride faster then a hub motor will be more suitable.

How do I determine which is the correct frame size ? - is there a formula relating to leg length and height.

I am 6' 1'' tall but only have a 31" inside leg (trouser length).

There is a formula somewhere but it's only vague and you shoulod definately try riding first. I'm a bit shorter than you but have a 32" inside leg, I found the Wisper a good fit but could do with a longer seatpost.

The other machine I am considering is the Wisper 905E but cannot find any frame details or clear specification like the bottom bracket type and wheel quality etc etc.

Any further help and advise would be greatly appreciated

The BB on the Wisper is a cup and cone which needs tools that I can't find in any catalogue, it's coming up to service time so I'm just going to get a shop to rip it out and fit a simple cartridge BB. It's annoying but not really a big deal now I am prepared for it.
The BB on a Kalkhoff is in the Panasonic motor unit so you can't do anything with that anyway.
A couple of people (me especially) have had trouble with Wisper wheels but that's an extremely small percentage and while it was very annoying at the time they replaced it with something more suitable to my riding. Similar stories for the Kalkhoff from what I have seen on here.

 

[PED-AL]

So -- It seems that I am on the right track looking at a Wisper 905e sport and the Kalkhoff agattu but would just need to do a few mods on either of them.

The wisper 905 seems the nearest to the spec I need and would probably be easier and cost less to get most of what I am looking for.

Yes you are right the disc front brake could be better for off road use.

Fitting a cassette bottom bracket for peace of mind should not be a major problem and I would have that extra power when my back and legs were complaining.

Do they have Thumb shifters, Q.R front wheel, Good quality sprung seat post and 175mm cranks as standard ?

Where could I get a look and ride on one nr Oakham in Rutland ?

Thanks for the latter comments

 

[Mussels]

So -- It seems that I am on the right track looking at a Wisper 905e sport and the Kalkhoff agattu but would just need to do a few mods on either of them.

The wisper 905 seems the nearest to the spec I need and would probably be easier and cost less to get most of what I am looking for.

Yes you are right the disc front brake could be better for off road use.

Fitting a cassette bottom bracket for peace of mind should not be a major problem and I would have that extra power when my back and legs were complaining.

Do they have Thumb shifters, Q.R front wheel, Good quality sprung seat post and 175mm cranks as standard ?

Where could I get a look and ride on one nr Oakham in Rutland ?

Thanks for the latter comments

I would worry more about the type of ride you prefer as they are very different.
The Wisper comes with a decent enough sprung seat post, it sticks a bit, no amount of grease stops it squeaking, it's a bit short and only much good on full preload for someone under 15 stone. I've done about 3000 miles on it so far and I'm not desperate to change it so it can't be that bad.
The wheels are not QR but I just carry a single adjustable spanner that does everything and I measured the cranks at 170mm, from what you have said I see no need for you to get 175mm.
The 905se comes with a Shimano thumbshifter.
Wisper will read this thread after a while and may be able to help with the test ride, though looking at your location a Kalkhoff has the definate advantage.

 

[flecc]

Fitting a cassette bottom bracket for peace of mind should not be a major problem and I would have that extra power when my back and legs were complaining.

Do they have Thumb shifters, Q.R front wheel, Good quality sprung seat post and 175mm cranks as standard ?

Where could I get a look and ride on one nr Oakham in Rutland ?

The Kalkhoff Agattu has a twist shifter for it's Shimano Nexus 7 speed hub gear, no quick release on the front wheel since it has a Shimano hubdyno, but it has 175 mm cranks and a sound sprung seatpost most suitable for riders on the heavier side.

The bottom bracket is a very substantial assembly built into the motor unit with a precision ballrace on the left and needle rollers incorporated in a crankshaft freewheel on the right. The needle rollers only operate when freewheeling and run within the pawl freewheel outer which in turn is supported by a large precision ballrace, the R/H main bearing. You can see the complete crankshaft assembly with it's incorporated pedelec components here, showing the L/H ballrace and R/H needle rollers:

I've never known these bearings give any trouble on these units.

Test rides are available at the agent's main office in Loughborough:

50cycles contact page
.

 

[PED-AL]

Hello
I don't think I should let the fact that I am closer to 50 cyles carry to much weight in my decission as I can fix or change parts myself and replacement parts could be posted to me.

I have just spoken to David at Wisper and am definately going to get a look at and test ride the 905SE especially with the modifications that will be included on the bikes by the time I need them.

I am also encouraged by David's enthusiasm and apparant commitment to iron out any bugs or shortcomings the bike has had - he obviously reads the comments on this forum and takes them seriously.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply to my questions.

I will post again after viewing / testing the Wisper.

 

[PED-AL]

The Kalkhoff Agattu has a twist shifter for it's Shimano Nexus 7 speed hub gear, no quick release on the front wheel since it has a Shimano hubdyno, but it has 175 mm cranks and a sound sprung seatpost most suitable for riders on the heavier side.

The bottom bracket is a very substantial assembly built into the motor unit with a precision ballrace on the left and needle rollers incorporated in a crankshaft freewheel on the right. The needle rollers only operate when freewheeling and run within the pawl freewheel outer which in turn is supported by a large precision ballrace, the R/H main bearing. You can see the complete crankshaft assembly with it's incorporated pedelec components here, showing the L/H ballrace and R/H needle rollers:

I've never known these bearings give any trouble on these units.

Test rides are available at the agent's main office in Loughborough:

50cycles contact page
.

Hello

Thank you for the information - I have test ridden the agattu at 50cycles and found it very comfortable but with my disability I am cocerned about the need to pedal at all times unless freewheeling.
Also the more effort less reward sinario with the system seemed strange but I do understand the logic.
Thumb shifters as on the pro connect I tried are a must and seem more positive(arthritis in thumb Joints).
Also I am concerned about the Gear range with the 7 speed hub and the possible drag and extra weight of the dynamo hub as I do not need lights.
It seem like I need a cross between the Agattu and the 905se

 

[flecc]

It seem like I need a cross between the Agattu and the 905se

This is a common problem PED-AL, despite so many bikes on the market they largely conform to a couple of patterns that don't meet all requirements.

It's especially true for anyone with some disabilities, and I've sometime been moved to remark that e-bikes are unsuitable for overcoming those in most cases.

The Wisper 905se would seem to be the nearest to meeting your needs, subject to it's hill climbing ability being sufficient, and a trial ride is essential of course. If you email David Miall, MD of Wisperbike, he may well be able to recommend a convenient location where you can try one out:

miall@aol.com
.

 

[PED-AL]

Is the IZIP Trekking LI enlightened worth a look ?. Although the frame fitted barreries are tidy is it a sound idea ? I am not sure how the assistance works or how good it would be at climbing.

 

[PED-AL]

This is a common problem PED-AL, despite so many bikes on the market they largely conform to a couple of patterns that don't meet all requirements.

It's especially true for anyone with some disabilities, and I've sometime been moved to remark that e-bikes are unsuitable for overcoming those in most cases.

The Wisper 905se would seem to be the nearest to meeting your needs, subject to it's hill climbing ability being sufficient, and a trial ride is essential of course. If you email David Miall, MD of Wisperbike, he may well be able to recommend a convenient location where you can try one out:

miall@aol.com
.

Is it a poor hill climber or just not as good as the agattu

 

[Mussels]

As I mentioned I wish to ride with light pedalling at a steady pace - You know what I meant about the Headset !!

Actually I have no idea what you mean, I'm new to this pushbike lark and I've only heard of one type of head bearing with motorbikes. And when I read your post I completely missed the disability part, sorry.

 

[flecc]

Is it a poor hill climber or just not as good as the agattu

It's not particularly poor, but the hub motor is slightly biased to speed so that slightly lessens it's hill ability.

Bikes that transmit the power through the chain and bike gears like the Agattu are always far better at hill climbing, simply because the motor benefits from the ability to change down in the same way as one does with cars on hills, matching the available power to a speed that the hill can be climbed at. That said, the system requires 43% to 50% of the power needed to come from the rider, depending on the power setting chosen, so not so easy if one has limited ability.

By contrast, hub motors are effectively stuck in top gear since they only have the one relationship to their wheel, so they are disadvantaged on hills. This disadvantage is partly overcome by hub motors generally being more powerful, and it's that surplus power at other times like on the flat which enables riding without pedalling.

There are many Izips, it's a sort of catch all name used by two different companies, but I assume you mean the one with a rear wheel hub motor and pannier battery. I'm given to believe it's an average power bike so not especially good at hills, but I haven't had the chance to try one and they haven't been submitted for review to the recognised e-biking magazine. Therefore I'd say it's essential to try it first.
.

 

[PED-AL]

As I understand there are two types of headset used on bicycles, The standard 1" Threaded type that can be adjusted for height and the "A" headset which is a 1 1/8" which the handlebar stem is clamped to.

I much prefer the latter and fit a stem that suits me for height and reach as I find the 1" adjustable type flex and feel a little wobbly as there needs to be sliding clearance for the adjustment and most seem to have a crude taper wedge that pushes the stem against the inner wall of the steerer tube and itself against the oposite side of tube.

The play/clearance is small (probably only .002" - .004" at the stem but feels a lot at the handlebars.

I am use to a precision fit/feel from a lifetime of Motorcycle Trials competition ( not Motocross), and large road motorcycles.

I am also a precision engineer (Toolmaker) and so set high standards in whateaver I do.

Sorry for the waffle.
Allan

 

[PED-AL]

It's not particularly poor, but the hub motor is slightly biased to speed so that slightly lessens it's hill ability.

Bikes that transmit the power through the chain and bike gears like the Agattu are always far better at hill climbing, simply because the motor benefits from the ability to change down in the same way as one does with cars on hills, matching the available power to a speed that the hill can be climbed at. That said, the system requires 43% to 50% of the power needed to come from the rider, depending on the power setting chosen, so not so easy if one has limited ability.

By contrast, hub motors are effectively stuck in top gear since they only have the one relationship to their wheel, so they are disadvantaged on hills. This disadvantage is partly overcome by hub motors generally being more powerful, and it's that surplus power at other times like on the flat which enables riding without pedalling.

There are many Izips, it's a sort of catch all name used by two different companies, but I assume you mean the one with a rear wheel hub motor and pannier battery. I'm given to believe it's an average power bike so not especially good at hills, but I haven't had the chance to try one and they haven't been submitted for review to the recognised e-biking magazine. Therefore I'd say it's essential to try it first.
.

Thanks for that explanation, I am not convinced that I could put in 50% effort for the duration of a trail/track ride around rutland water as an example lets say 27 miles at the moment.

I think from what you are explaining to me it would be wise for me to have a hub motor bicycle and then if a hill beats me I could walk along side the bike pulling itself up on the throttle if that sounds feasable.

The Izip I was referring to has the batteries inside the front down tube and is only 24v 9Ah whereas I would think I need the 36 Volt 14Ah of the Wisper or similar to do the job I need it to do.