What's going on with e-cars?

[John F]

Interesting article in today's Sunday Times. This article tells us that there are 10,000 electric vehicles. Another article in the same edition - "Supercharger highway powers up electric cars" tells us that "only 1,547 pure electric cars were registered in the first 4 months of this year: 0.18% of total car sales"

The article below does not mention the cost of replacing batteries. It implies that an ecar makes financial sense, yet someone on this forum told us that it costs £15K to replace Nissan Leaf batteries. Are the buyers been conned or what?

 

[flecc]

Yes, they are being conned, and that's why I keep drawing attention to the issue.

Actually the last price for the Nissan leaf battery was £16000 and the car double that including the battery, which has a five year warranty.

Work it out for yourself. A smallish hatchback which if petrol/diesel would cost around £12000 . The £32000 Leaf at say four years old will be unsaleable, since no-one will pay anything for it, knowing it's almost due a new battery at more than the price of a new equivalent ic car. Basically it's £32000 for up to five years motoring in a small hatchback.

Being a short range mainly town car it will only achieve less than 9000 miles a year at most. In fact few current owners are reaching anything like that, but I'm being generous. A petrol car would use at most 200 gallons to do that, at a cost of roughly £1200, or £6000 over five years. Deduct the cost of the electricity to charge the Leaf, which won't be much, but still the economics don't equate. £32000 less say £5000 still adds up to £27000 for a small hatchback. Currently the government give a £5000 grant against the car cost, so that reduces to £22000 while it lasts. That's still way more than the £12000 for an ic hatchback which can be sold after 4 years for about £4000, reducing the net cost to £8000.

The equivalent Renault looks cheaper since they rent the batteries, but I've shown previously how the annual rental of the battery escalates, amounting to the same thing as the Leaf after four years, the maximum rental term.

They are toys for the rich, or for committed environmentalists who are prepared to pay £27000 for their beliefs, instead of £8000.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Don't forget the London congestion charge and free road tax for the complete comparison

 

[stu]

To go slightly off subject but sticking with are we being conned, ive been looking on youtube at free energy, i may be naive but it seems that we could have been enjoying free energy for some time now, The big companies control everything , including the government, they just stamp on anything that would benefit you and i but not them.

 

[Geebee]

To go slightly off subject but sticking with are we being conned, ive been looking on youtube at free energy, i may be naive but it seems that we could have been enjoying free energy for some time now, The big companies control everything , including the government, they just stamp on anything that would benefit you and i but not them.

Unfortuntately, if you are serious you are naive, "free energy" does not exist, unless you know how to bypass physics.

 

[flecc]

Don't forget the London congestion charge and free road tax for the complete comparison

The free road tax doesn't alter the poor economics to any useful extent. But yes, for the small minority in London who commute across the congestion charge line one might seem viable. But don't forget that hybrids and ultra low emission petrol cars have also been exempt from the charge. A very high proportion of those who have to enter the zone daily are in these groups, realising those options make much more sense.

However, congestion charges seem a dead duck since Manchester has turned such a charge down and most other cities are also hostile to having one.

So while well aware of the congestion charge since I live in London, it wasn't worth including a mention for a few affected people when assessing the general economics for both the UK and the rest of the world.

The irony in our case is that the wealthy who can afford the luxury of such a toy as their town car get the benefit of the £5000 subsidy we pay through our taxes but often live within the congestion charge zone so rarely cross the line to incur a congestion charge!

 

[Deleted member 4366]

To go slightly off subject but sticking with are we being conned, ive been looking on youtube at free energy, i may be naive but it seems that we could have been enjoying free energy for some time now, The big companies control everything , including the government, they just stamp on anything that would benefit you and i but not them.

Virtually all our energy comes from the sun. It gives it to us for nothing.

 

[berkobennie]

The Renault Zoe, you can only rent the battery, cost dependent upon the yearly mileage and length of contract, 'to keep costs' affordable' !! Just like a mobile phone contract then.....!

 

[flecc]

I looked into the Renaults as well as part of a search to find if e-cars could be viable, since I really would have liked one for my mainly in-town use.

But although I could afford to buy and run one, the economics made absolutely no sense and the environmental credentials are suspect. These searches have been in 2008, 2011 and again in 2013, and are why I'm quite well informed on the subject.

 

[John F]

Yes, they are being conned, and that's why I keep drawing attention to the issue.

Actually the last price for the Nissan leaf battery was £16000 and the car double that including the battery, which has a five year warranty.

Work it out for yourself. A smallish hatchback which if petrol/diesel would cost around £12000 . The £32000 Leaf at say four years old will be unsaleable, since no-one will pay anything for it, knowing it's almost due a new battery at more than the price of a new equivalent ic car. Basically it's £32000 for up to five years motoring in a small hatchback.

Being a short range mainly town car it will only achieve less than 9000 miles a year at most. In fact few current owners are reaching anything like that, but I'm being generous. A petrol car would use at most 200 gallons to do that, at a cost of roughly £1200, or £6000 over five years. Deduct the cost of the electricity to charge the Leaf, which won't be much, but still the economics don't equate. £32000 less say £5000 still adds up to £27000 for a small hatchback. Currently the government give a £5000 grant against the car cost, so that reduces to £22000 while it lasts. That's still way more than the £12000 for an ic hatchback which can be sold after 4 years for about £4000, reducing the net cost to £8000.

The equivalent Renault looks cheaper since they rent the batteries, but I've shown previously how the annual rental of the battery escalates, amounting to the same thing as the Leaf after four years, the maximum rental term.

They are toys for the rich, or for committed environmentalists who are prepared to pay £27000 for their beliefs, instead of £8000.

Unbelievable that the media, particularly my "quality" Sunday paper, seem to not mention at all what happens when the battery dies.

But now the good news! (from the other article) If you buy a Tesla electric car (cheapest model =£50,280) they will soon be able to charge up on motorways in only 20 minutes, and they have a range of 240 miles. Now how much will THAT battery cost?!

 

[Dubster]

The VW e-up (insert Yorkshire joke here) is available for less than £20K (after government grant) and comes with an 8 year battery warranty.

Looks to be a better bet than the Renault or Nissan?

 

[John F]

The VW e-up (insert Yorkshire joke here) is available for less than £20K (after government grant) and comes with an 8 year battery warranty.

Looks to be a better bet than the Renault or Nissan?

8 years? Another con?!

 

[flecc]

The VW e-up (insert Yorkshire joke here) is available for less than £20K (after government grant) and comes with an 8 year battery warranty.

Looks to be a better bet than the Renault or Nissan?

I doubt it. Volkswagen are new to e-cars, unlike Nissan and Renault who are essentially one joint company.

When Nissan launched the Leaf they claimed the battery would last 10 years with no mention of warranty. However with experience they cut the life claim to 7 years and with just 5 years of warranty. Another clue to the real battery life is with partner Renault who will only rent the same battery for 4 years maximum. Clearly they expect it to be somewhat lacking after that and are not confident about it's use well beyond that 4 years. Therefore I think the Nissan 7 years life claim is unlikely, at least as far as acceptable performance and range are concerned.

I'm sure VW will also have to review their life claim once they've gained more e-car experience.

And then there's the range issue. Nissan claimed 100 miles at first for the Leaf battery, while Renault with the heavier Fluence model using the same battery and electrics claimed 110 miles. Clearly one is wrong. In fact the most realistic independent review achieved 73 miles of reasonable driving on moderate territory in daylight without rain, so no lights and wiper use. Of course it then had to be recovered on a truck.

Consider that at 4 years old and in rain on a cold dark night. The wipers, headlights and heater will be sapping that range, and at four years the battery will have lost capacity anyway. I could see the realistic range potential then being 50 miles at most. But of course one couldn't set out on a 25 miles each way trip, since that 50 mile range couldn't be guaranteed. At least 10 miles would have to be left as reserve, so the longest trip would be 20 miles absolute maximum each way at most. On a £32000 car!!!!
.