What happens at 25 km/hr?

[CDinFrance]

Now that the weather is nice, I am starting to test ride e-bikes with the intention of purchasing soon. Today I test rode the new Villiger Leventina, which is the same bike as the Trek T500E.

Villiger: LEVENTINA TOUR E

I was very impressed with the build quality of the bike, and the BionX motor had a good power output.

I found two main problems with the bike though: First at the highest power (level 4), there is a noticeable vibration from the motor. Can I assume this is true of all BionX powered models?

More importantly though, there was a very disturbing effect when riding around 25 km/hr, which in my experience with e-bikes is the speed I usually ride.

With the Villiger, as soon as you go over 25, there is an abrupt power cut and it feels like you are being pulled backwards. As soon as you drop to 23 or 24, the motor gives you a strong push forward. The way I ride, this tend to happen every 100 metres or so, and the push-pull sensation is very unpleasant. Perhaps this is a problem of a first generation bike, and the controller algorithm for gradually diminishing the assist has not quite been worked out yet.

However, the dealer said that the Koga Tesla had exactly the same problem.

Is this a general problem with hub motor bikes?

 

[torrent99]

Now that the weather is nice, I am starting to test ride e-bikes with the intention of purchasing soon. Today I test rode the new Villiger Leventina, which is the same bike as the Trek T500E.

Villiger: LEVENTINA TOUR E

I was very impressed with the build quality of the bike, and the BionX motor had a good power output.

I found two main problems with the bike though: First at the highest power (level 4), there is a noticeable vibration from the motor. Can I assume this is true of all BionX powered models?

More importantly though, there was a very disturbing effect when riding around 25 km/hr, which in my experience with e-bikes is the speed I usually ride.

With the Villiger, as soon as you go over 25, there is an abrupt power cut and it feels like you are being pulled backwards. As soon as you drop to 23 or 24, the motor gives you a strong push forward. The way I ride, this tend to happen every 100 metres or so, and the push-pull sensation is very unpleasant. Perhaps this is a problem of a first generation bike, and the controller algorithm for gradually diminishing the assist has not quite been worked out yet.

However, the dealer said that the Koga Tesla had exactly the same problem.

Is this a general problem with hub motor bikes?

Not on my Wisper (which has a freewheel in the motor, not sure if the Bionx does). Basically the motor can only spin so fast, above that speed the power drops away as you pedal faster than the motor.

It sounds like on the bikes you were riding the motor could spin much faster than 25km/h and the controller on the bike was abruptly cutting the power.

 

[The Maestro]

Not on my Wisper (which has a freewheel in the motor, not sure if the Bionx does). Basically the motor can only spin so fast, above that speed the power drops away as you pedal faster than the motor.

It sounds like on the bikes you were riding the motor could spin much faster than 25km/h and the controller on the bike was abruptly cutting the power.

The way I look at it, to remain legal, you can either have full assist up to 25kph and an abrupt stop or a tapering off up to the top speed. As I think 25kph is extremely low to begin with I'd rather have the former. However in actual fact I'd rather say ******* to the law and taper off 4 or 5 mph later to get a reasonably normal cycling speed.

I did ride a bike with an abrupt stop but only for a few minutes, I did think it was rubbish but mainly because it cut out at such a low speed. I guess it would become really annoying over a period of time, but if you are constantly passing the threshhold anyway do you really need the electric assist up to a measely 15.5 mph?

 

[alsmith]

The way I look at it, to remain legal, you can either have full assist up to 25kph and an abrupt stop or a tapering off up to the top speed. As I think 25kph is extremely low to begin with I'd rather have the former. However in actual fact I'd rather say ******* to the law and taper off 4 or 5 mph later to get a reasonably normal cycling speed.

I did ride a bike with an abrupt stop but only for a few minutes, I did think it was rubbish but mainly because it cut out at such a low speed. I guess it would become really annoying over a period of time, but if you are constantly passing the threshhold anyway do you really need the electric assist up to a measely 15.5 mph?

But that's the problem- if they changed the law to where you say (20mph) then the same will be said, and implemented by some- a 25 mph roll off.
It's similar to the 60mph limit on country roads thing- Is it a real 60mph limit, or can you go as fast as you want when overtaking- some will do 100mph and return to 60mph very slowly after the manouvre.
Things will be interpreted by some people that exceeds the intention of the law- that may be why things are set conservatively at times.

 

[CDinFrance]

Disabling the Bionx Max speed...

Found a thread on disabling the Bionx max speed. I will give it a try and report back.

 

[Stephen-Gately]

Some say........that at 25kph, your face actually melts.

 

[Footie]

I found two main problems with the bike though: First at the highest power (level 4), there is a noticeable vibration from the motor. Can I assume this is true of all BionX powered models?

More importantly though, there was a very disturbing effect when riding around 25 km/hr, which in my experience with e-bikes is the speed I usually ride.

With the Villiger, as soon as you go over 25, there is an abrupt power cut and it feels like you are being pulled backwards. As soon as you drop to 23 or 24, the motor gives you a strong push forward. The way I ride, this tend to happen every 100 metres or so, and the push-pull sensation is very unpleasant. Perhaps this is a problem of a first generation bike, and the controller algorithm for gradually diminishing the assist has not quite been worked out yet.

However, the dealer said that the Koga Tesla had exactly the same problem.

Is this a general problem with hub motor bikes?

It sounds to me that you may be tying to cycle above your comfortable Cadence point for the bike. So when the power goes off you can’t maintain it and your speed drops.

My Cougar (rear hub motor) has power to about 16mph when it stops. Any speed above this has to come from the rider. When cycling above the cut-out point and the speed starts to drop I get a slight push when the speed slows down to about 15mph, which indicates the power has kicked back in. This sequence is not ridged as sometimes the power push kicks in at 15.5mph. What cause this anomaly I’m not sure but on my bike it's fairly gentle. At 16mph my Cadence is around 60rpm, which due to the weight and hub resistance on my bike is a comfortable pace and one I can maintain.

So putting it simply - on my ebike;
When slowing - at 15mph the power kicks in.
When speeding up - at 16mph the power switches off.
I cycle at around 15-16mph - at a Cadence of around 60rpm.

It’s something I’ve got used to and now anticipate.

----------------------------------
Cougar Mountain Electric Bike (Jul07)
fitted with LiFePo4 battery (Apr08)
.

 

[stranger]

Isn't that the speed at which the Universe disappears up it's own------------------------------?

Oh no sorry. Wrong forum.

 

[The Maestro]

But that's the problem- if they changed the law to where you say (20mph) then the same will be said

Yes but less would complain. I was only replying to the 15.5 mph thing, if you are only pootling around then it doesn't really matter. I hate to characterise or stereotype but if you are unfit and 15.5 is good for you and ebikes are for the unfit then fair enough.

 

[Haku]

My Urban Mover abruptly cuts off at 15mph which can be annoying, especially as when the motor isn't receivng power it acts like a dynamo making it harder to pedal than a normal bike, so if you're hovvering around 15mph you can almost get a slow-fast-slow-fast thing happening like a learner driver with the clutch/accelerator. But the way I've overcome that problem is through using the throttle, normally that would cut out at 10mph but I derestricted it, meaning I have full manual control over the motor speed which makes cycling at lower speeds much more comfortable and can get above 20mph with motor power.

 

[Rad]

Some say........that at 25kph, your face actually melts.

I believe that was proved by the institute of studies.

 

[joab]

CycleAnalyst

I have the CA on my Ezee kit. Speed limit is set on 26km. If I use it full throttle is speeds up to 27km, cuts out, speed drops to 25km and then moves back to 26km and stays on that speed.
Regards,
Jo

 

[Andrew harvey]

The V is for voltage forum tells you how to delimit the Bionx, It works.
On a 26" wheel the power keeps coming untill the motor reaches its top speed. As I stock the Bionx motor I shouldn't tell you that the speed disable code is .......................
I've a few electric bikes in the shop now, but the ones that impresses people the most are the ones with the Bionx kit, particularly the Airnimal Move (when derestricted).

 

[Caph]

I did ride a bike with an abrupt stop but only for a few minutes, I did think it was rubbish but mainly because it cut out at such a low speed. I guess it would become really annoying over a period of time, but if you are constantly passing the threshhold anyway do you really need the electric assist up to a measely 15.5 mph?

Isn't that missing the point of an electric bike? Who needs electrical assistance downhill? No-one. What about on the flat? Not really, I can easily maintain 15-20mph without a strong headwind (although I appreciate that some people aren't as lucky as me ability wise). Now how about hills? Suddenly I see lots of hands going up. How about long steep hills? More hands. How about long steep hills with a murderous headwind? That's why we have electric bikes, surely. Not for top end speed but for bottom end speed where it's needed most.

I love tootling along at 15-20mph unassisted along the flat without putting in much effort but I hate slogging my guts out at 8mph up a steep hill for half a mile twice daily. Hence the electric bike. Now I tootle along just the same whether uphill or not. Never getting too hot and bothered and never losing the big grin on my face.

 

[Phil the drill]

Isn't that the speed at which the Universe disappears up it's own------------------------------?

Oh no sorry. Wrong forum.

Black hole?

Phil

 

[rog_london]

Isn't that missing the point of an electric bike? Who needs electrical assistance downhill? No-one. What about on the flat? Not really, I can easily maintain 15-20mph without a strong headwind (although I appreciate that some people aren't as lucky as me ability wise). Now how about hills? Suddenly I see lots of hands going up. How about long steep hills? More hands. How about long steep hills with a murderous headwind? That's why we have electric bikes, surely. Not for top end speed but for bottom end speed where it's needed most.

I love tootling along at 15-20mph unassisted along the flat without putting in much effort but I hate slogging my guts out at 8mph up a steep hill for half a mile twice daily. Hence the electric bike. Now I tootle along just the same whether uphill or not. Never getting too hot and bothered and never losing the big grin on my face.

I certainly go along with that with no reservations at all. I ride a motorbike, but an electric bike is just as much fun in a completely different way. I didn't buy it to save the environment (that's a marketing joke, if ever I heard one), and I didn't buy it to commute either, I bought it primarily because I knew I'd love riding it, and the exercise would be a bonus.

The Wisper is an interesting and, IMO, a well considered compromise when it comes to just where the assistance is applied and where it's not. You can (with present models) opt for a bit extra in terms of top assisted speed (which influenced my purchasing decision) but it doesn't have a 'de-restricted' mode. Why should it? Just a few miles an hour more than what's available would halve the run-time of the battery, so of course a sensible compromise is what it's about, without too obviously flouting the rules. I suspect the 15mph design speed specified for an e-bike is a happy and fortunate compromise, since it fits in perfectly with the combination of available battery technology and the distance requirements of most riders.

If I really want more speed without having to pedal, then the old Honda is ready to oblige.

Rog.

 

[Barnowl]

I certainly go along with that with no reservations at all. I ride a motorbike, but an electric bike is just as much fun in a completely different way. I didn't buy it to save the environment (that's a marketing joke, if ever I heard one), and I didn't buy it to commute either, I bought it primarily because I knew I'd love riding it, and the exercise would be a bonus.

The Wisper is an interesting and, IMO, a well considered compromise when it comes to just where the assistance is applied and where it's not. You can (with present models) opt for a bit extra in terms of top assisted speed (which influenced my purchasing decision) but it doesn't have a 'de-restricted' mode. Why should it? Just a few miles an hour more than what's available would halve the run-time of the battery, so of course a sensible compromise is what it's about, without too obviously flouting the rules. I suspect the 15mph design speed specified for an e-bike is a happy and fortunate compromise, since it fits in perfectly with the combination of available battery technology and the distance requirements of most riders.

If I really want more speed without having to pedal, then the old Honda is ready to oblige.

Rog.

Yes I too agree with Caph. I have the Tongxin 175RPM hub motor. I did consider splashing out and getting the 190RPM which might get me a mile or per hour additional assistance. I decided I'd rather invest in another battery instead because I'm actually ok with the 15.5MPH limit.
I don't potter around (although I do find it enjoyable on occassion). I am reasonably fit and can easily cycle well over 15.5mph now. So why bother with the electric option at all?

Hills and headwind. In fact any upward slopes at all. You can get up so much faster and with plenty of energy to spare and relatively sweat free.

Acceleration: I can get up to and over 16MPH really fast. I leave cars standing at the traffic lights.

Taking a breather: Very nice trundling through the park on low power.

More fun: So I use it far more often than a bicycle.

A cheap powered vehicle I can use in the cycle lanes and across the parks and passageways. More power would inevitably lead to regulation.

Assistance up to about 20mph would cost a lot more courtesy of the expensive battery technology but I would save a minute or so at best.

Edit: P.S. At 15 miles an hour I don't get any vibration or indication that the motor is no longer assisting.

 

[The Maestro]

Isn't that missing the point of an electric bike? Who needs electrical assistance downhill? No-one. What about on the flat? Not really, I can easily maintain 15-20mph without a strong headwind (although I appreciate that some people aren't as lucky as me ability wise). Now how about hills? Suddenly I see lots of hands going up. How about long steep hills? More hands. How about long steep hills with a murderous headwind? That's why we have electric bikes, surely. Not for top end speed but for bottom end speed where it's needed most.

I love tootling along at 15-20mph unassisted along the flat without putting in much effort but I hate slogging my guts out at 8mph up a steep hill for half a mile twice daily. Hence the electric bike. Now I tootle along just the same whether uphill or not. Never getting too hot and bothered and never losing the big grin on my face.

Probably going off the original subject a bit but I think a bike that performs an effort lessening effect at all common cycling speeds (0-30) is what will open up cycling to more people. I want to put in effort at all speeds, I want to stand up on the pedals going up a really steep hill to get more leverage. I want to put in effort at all speeds. To me a powerful 0-15mph hill climber is a slow moped. Im not having a go at people who use such a thing because I think its laudable over driving a car. I just think the current bikes are stupid. Electric bikes are meant to make CYCLING easier and they don't they are an entirely different category.

 

[CDinFrance]

Unable to unlock the Villiger - yet

Thanks for all the replies. Basically, I don't really want to go faster than 15 mph, but the problem is that on this bike if you inadvertently get to 16, it feels like the brakes are automatically put on. Some have described it as hitting a wall. If it were just a matter of being "on your own" over the speed limit, that would be fine. Personally I think the assistance should just taper off as it did on my old Yamaha.

I have done some investigating and apparently Villiger/Trek have locked the normal Bionx workaround. One creative local shop suggests they may be able to fix that though... I will report back.

 

[chuff_nutty]

Isn't that the speed at which the Universe disappears up it's own------------------------------?

Oh no sorry. Wrong forum.

Haha, your a funny chap. If only there were more of your sort on this forum, having only joined it seems a bit dull...